Are aid climbers really climbers or just lunatics without talent? / Is aid climbing for me?
How do I get started aid climbing?
Where can I practice aid climbing locally? (US only)
Which aiders should I buy? / How many aiders should I use?
Should I use the "new" Russian aider system?
Which ascenders should I buy?
Which portaledge should I buy? Should I buy a single or a double?
How are aid climbs rated?
What's the most efficient way to work as a three person team?
Does this route go clean?
What harness should I buy for big walls?
What should I wear for shoes while aiding?
How do I jug (ascend the rope)?
What should I use as a backup while jugging?
How do I get the rope to feed smoothly through the lower ascender after tying in short?
Everything about hooks (slinging, racking, using) with an emphasis on cam hooks
See also: Should I add CCH Hybrid Aliens (offset Aliens) to my rack?
Are aid climbers really climbers or just lunatics without talent? / Is aid climbing for me? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Jeff Batten
Free climbing is for losers.
Get a %$#%#$^ hammer, and have your self some fun.
From: Fatso
A good friend (and strong free climber at that) recently expressed
interest in getting into aid. I gave the beta I had, then sent him the
following disclaimer:
1) Aid is addicting. You can expect the addiction to
begin slowly, then grow rapidly to horrible proportions
in no time at all. Like otheraddictions, you'll enter
a period of denial and bury your depression in another
aid lead.
2) Aid is expensive. Expect to spend loads of money
on nuts, biners cams, etc. Till you have at least 5 sets
of each. You will have to buy all thetrick goodies. If
you aren't one already, you will probably become an
ice climber which of course means you will need MORE
GEAR. And a bigger truck to haul it all around in.
3) Aid is slow. Your speech may begin to take on a
southern drawl. You may be sweating through an A4
section, only to look down and see your partner
sleeping at the belay. Go up to point 2 above and add
a Gri-Gri to the list.
4) Aid is infectious. It gets in your blood, then
other forms of upward mobility are contaminated.
You no longer worry about grabbing gear on free
routes, using bolts for footholds on sport routes, etc.
5) Aid breeds complacency. You no longer care if your
partner takes 4 hours to lead a 60' pitch - or if your
lead takes 7 hours. You'll quit working for a redpoint
on a hard sport route and instead, like the French,
celebrate getting to the anchor regardless of how
you got there. You'll watch the sand trash your gear
and instead of being bummed, you'll lookforward to
buying more gear.
6) Aid changes your outlook. Short routes become
intolerably boring. Everything in life begins to
look different. Part of that is probably because
your body begins to take on sort of a forward curl
and you find yourself often staring at your feet.
The bottom line is that you should avoid aid
climbing unless you look forward to being a broke,
infected, complacent, slow-moving gear junkie
with a monster rack (sing along) with a faraway
gaze in your eyes and a bit of a drawl.
From: Eric Coomer
I don't understand aid climbing. The climbers in the TR's complain
about how awful it is, and when they near the top, all they can think
about is getting off the wall. Why don't they just stay off the wall
in the first place?
Simple, to be a decent aid climber you must have the following qualities:
Alcoholic (helps with others below)
That about covers it.
From: Dave Condit
There's nothing quite like suffing on a wall. It's especially bad when you're
climbing solo. Almost every big wall I've done, I've told myself this would be
the last. However, as soon as I top out, I start planning my next climb. I
forget about the bad parts or just down-play them.
In fact, I forget about the suffering so entirely that I find myself searching
for ways to make it more challenging. My last wall in Zion was done with only
two King Cans of Coors and a five pound bag of gummy bears for subsistence.
Seriously, it's like an addiction. Each adventure has to be more intense than
the last. You really have to experience it to really understand.
From: Nate Beckwith
Overall, aid climbing is pretty wimpy, IMHO. Often when I go up to
Flagstaff, and get completely humbled, I think to myself - what if aid
climbers trained like this? I think of the 1000s and 1000s of hours
I've spent climbing hard and frustrating moves - learning, getting
stronger, smarter, developing technique, etc - almost 13 years now! And
I still suck! I contrast that with figuring out a few of El Cap's
supposedly hardest aid routes in a few weeks. I didn't train for shit
to get on those things, other than knowing my knots, how to place gear,
having done a few long routes, etc..
I'm far more impressed with someone who has the strength and experience
to get off the couch and jump on the Scary Canary and Jules Verne climbs
of this world. The time and experience necessary to walk these kinds of
routes is totally amazing to me. I've never seen a lightweight even
show up at the base of these climbs, yet relatively inexperienced
climbers find success on El Cap all the time - or maybe it's all about
what I personally find hard...
From: Justin Peterson
the only
plausible reason for aiding is to access otherwise unreachable free
climbs. in and of itself aid climbing is nowhere and nothing. sure you
might be kinda cool because you can find that tricky placement but what
the hell. aiders are losers. free climbers unite.
From: Dingus Milktoast
To all of you posers who feel aiding is not climbing...
Feel free to leave ALL your rock gear home on you next trip to the crags. All
of it; your shoes, your chalk, your rope, your pro, your draws, your cloths,
your topos, your partners, everything; just climb the rock. You do that and
your walk might actually match your talk. Until then... well, by your own
words... aiding is not climbing. And AIDING is what you're doing when you use
any of the above devices to assist your ascent of a cliff. Why? If you can't do
without it then it must be aid!
From: Stephen Meir
Excuse Me? Aiding is not climbing? Get a clue fool! Even going up
stairs is climbing. Climbing is the gaining of altitude even if you
use a escalator to do so.
From: Yo Stoll
What the hell is this? "Admit" to aid climbing? The route is "tainted"?
"Better style"? Aiding being relegated to the aged and the incompetent?
You're making it sound like aiding is criminal or something. Aiding isn't
something I have to admit to, it's great and I'm proud to do it! There's
nothing better than hanging off a marginal piece on some blank face,
fifty pounds of gear on your rack, cows tail pulling down on your harness,
squeezing the bejeebees out of your kidneys while you fumble in the next
manky piece. Anything goes in aiding: use the rock, use your aiders,
push, pull, it's dirty, and involved, things shift, 'biners snap around.
It's not just a way to cop out of hard moves on free routes, it's a
legitimate style which predates free climbing, and it's a lot of fun. So
strap on all your gear (and all your partners gear) and step into a pair of
aiders!
From: Rick Donnelly
Aiding, is like defusing bombs (as far as stress goes). A vastly
different rush than free climbing......
From: Tonia Walden
Aid climbing is much more a mental exercise in problem solving and
performing in a constant fear state than the more physical free flowing
movement of free climbing.
From: MadDog
I think people should learn some aid soon after they learn to
freeclimb on gear.
Good point. That will teach what will and will not hold body weight.
It won't teach what will take a hard lead fall. Admittedly, practicing
aid helps one to place gear better and faster.
But let's think about another aspect. Do we really need more aid
climbers out there, buying up tons of gear and hogging all the lines in
the Valley?
From: Dingus Milktoast
Finally, a piece of advice... the free climber STUPID enough to pick a fight with an
aid climber while on a route is doomed to follow the path of the dodo bird! They have
hammers. They're attached to the wall. They have a lot more gear to throw. But most
importantly, oh lazy and frustrated free-climbing grasshopper, they are ABOVE YOU!
How do I get started aid climbing? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Steelmnkey
Wall climbing is about 70% mental and 30% technical,
but you gotta have both pieces to make it go or you'll
be in the bar before you can say "bounce test".
From: Avajane
Get a copy of Downward Bound by Warren Harding and read it end to end.
It's teach you everything you should and shouldn't know. Find a bolt
ladder and practice using your aiders. Then find something easy to protect
and aid up it. Pick some crummy,wet day and aid up - with nuts and cams
-some free climb. For pin practice find some rock with a crack right off
the ground and practice seeing what hold and what doesn't. I'm talking a
couple of feet off the ground; and I'm not talking about at a boldering
area. After that you're probably more ready than most new aid climbers
were. My first practice climb was the Lost Arrow Tip.
From: Steve Tregay
Read Middendorf's Big Walls in the How to Climb series. It is by far the best
book out there. Then get some jumars and aiders and ask around because
aid climbers are always looking for people to belay those 5 hour leads.
From: R. Kuehn
In answer to the
question; most climbing schools including the Yosemite climbing school
will give instruction in aid climbing. Talk to your local school, contact
Yosemite and/or your local shop.
From: Jon Rubinfier
The best way to learn aid is to hook up with a competent leader - check
the Camp 4 bulletin board, or sign up for the aid seminar at the
Mountaineering School. I believe this course is offered several times
each season. Individual guideing and instruction is also available from
big wall veterans such as Dan and Sue McDevitt.
Good references on aid climbing are Middendorf's and Long's Big Walls,
Freedom of the Hills, and Strassman's Big Wall Climbing.
From: Hans Lehman
Your best bet is to start on a steep crack climb that can be
aided cleanly (i.e. no hammering). If you have a decent free climbing
rack than you probably have enough gear for a pitch of maybe half a rope
length. You'll need some aiders. Store-bought ones are kind of pricey,
but the steps stay open easier. Or you can do what I did & just take a
*long* piece of webbing & tie it into a pair of aiders. If you have
lots of leading experience, that you know what to do with the gear. It
just takes time to work out the details & get the rythm down so that you
can move along at a decent pace.
From: Will
I learned the system of movement by leading a sport route. You get to just
focus on the movement instead of the gear. Just make sure you don't piss
anyone off by being up there forever.
From: Doug Knight
I usually take first time aiders to follow and clean the pitch. No
jumars. Then swing them into an A1-A2 lead. It all mechanical, and alot
easier than 20 years ago.
From: Chris Weaver
My first episode of aid climbing was at a local toproping area. I set up a
toprope, and aided the climb while belayed on TR by a friend. I suggest this as
the best way to learn aid climbing, since you may very well fall on your first
attempts. I would not suggest doing a lead for your first time out, as that
might very well scare the crap out of you (as it would me) and could be
dangerous if you zipper your pieces due to inexperience. Find a route that has a
very good variety of cracks going up to the anchor, and aid up the thing a few
times, finding out which placements are best for which gear, etc. Practice makes
perfect.
From: Simon Ibister
If you trad lead, and are comfortable placing every type of
piece you own, why use a top rope. Clearly, if you pick a crack that
looks good for your first aid lead, get on it, and either run out of
gear, or find that you can't get past a certain spot- just back off, and
learn on a different crack.
What is harder- hanging from a flaring finger lock, with negligible foot
holds, 15 feet above your last piece, trying to wiggle a little nut into
said crack, or sitting in your aiders, 3 feet above your last piece,
using both hands to find a placement.
If you can't do it, find another one. But provided you chose a crack that
really is A1 (and if you trad lead, you should know what will hold you or
not), you should make out OK.
And if you fall, your only a few feet above your last piece- it will be
more likely to hold than when you are 15 feet above a piece on a free
route.
When selecting a crack for your first aid lead, think about using one you
have freed before- that way, you know what pro to expect.
If you are doubting some of your pieces, you probably didn't find an A1
crack- get off it and find another one.
From: TheSeaGorn
Chuck Chongo has a book out now, it's like the big wall climbers bible i
guess... i don't know the name, but it's pricey. My advice is to do a whole
bunch of grade 4 and 5 routes first (red rocks is great for this) This will
develop your speed and route finding abilities. For the technical aspects of
aid climbing, try aiding (clean aid, of course) established free routes. We
used to do 'em at night for added thrill! Practice jumaring and hauling
technique before you go anywhere near a wall.
From: Dave Condit
Chongo's Big Wall Bible is about the most comprehensive volume I have ever seen
on the subject. It reads a little like a dissertation, but nobody could ever
accuse him of cutting corners. I've read all the books listed so far, and I
would say this is the best...if you've got a spare $60.
To get a copy, check Dejanews for points of contact...he self published.
From: Steelmnkey
Pick a crack. Aid it. Don't make a big deal out of it.
See also:
The Video Guide to Aid Climbing
Where can I practice aid climbing locally? (US only) [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
East Coast
Aid Climbing in NH
West Coast
Aid Practice In SFO
Middle
Info on Red Rocks Aid Routes
Which aiders should I buy? / How many aiders
should I use? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Robert Fonda
I prefer 2 pairs of 6 step. The one thing I will say is that I
don't like the Metolius aiders. The stiffen'ers for the steps tend to get
caught in cracks more than the Black Diamonds. I think you gonna find there
is no real right or wrong answer here, just preference. I tried various
combinations of a 5 and 6 step on each side. Didn't like it. I then tried
just a single pair of 5 steps, then a single pair of 6 step. Finnaly decided
I prefer 2 pairs of 6 step. Your gonna have to just play with it and see
what works for you. Have fun!
From: Dave Condit
I'm just the opposite. I think Black Diamond makes the worst aiders available.
The fabric is not stiff enough to keep the steps open, but it is stiff enough
to get caught in cracks. It's also made of webbing that frays easy resulting
in lots of little threads that get caught easily. I've tried all the tricks
(i.e., stiffening the steps with tape, plasti-dip, etc.), but they still suck.
As for the Metolius, they have a stiffer step, but I found the sleeker fabric
fabric allows it to be pulled through cracks easier by collapsing the steps.
This is also good for pullin the aiders up through the mess of ropes & gear
that is always hanging from you.
However, with all that said about the the Metolius, I prefer the Yates Wall
Ladders over everything. They always stay open, don't tangle easily, and are
comfortable to use. I like the rigid handles, but I've found they are not as
useful as I had hoped.
For six step versus five step, I wouldn't waist money on five step. What's the
point? It doesn't really save weight or space, and sooner or later you'll wish
you had the extra steps.
From: MadDog
The Misty Mountain Aiders have elastic toe clips for
jugging. Features or gimmicks?
I've got a pair of the Misty aiders you refer to. The elastic straps
do work - they aren't a gimmick in my opinion. I've been told that
this style (ladder) wears out faster than the more common designs but I
haven't used the Mistys enough to tell. In fact, they are only used in
the gym when setting routes now that I have the Trango Russian Aid
System - the best rig as far as I can tell.
From: arockclimber
My vote is for the Yates big wall ladders. They also have the
elastic toe clips on the 4th and 5th steps. These toe clips are the
best! I wouldn't buy a set without this feature now that I've got the
Yates. (I used to put heavy rubber bands on my old "A" style aiders to
cinch them down for long jugs.) I'm a big fan of the big wall aiders,
best I've ever owned. They are wide and comfortable, the plastic
spreader bar/handle is nice, and they don't twist in the wind. I've
owned homemade, BD, Metolius, and tried Misty.
From: Geoff Jennings
I love my Yates Aiders with the 2" webbing...No complaints about the weight
but they do seem prone to getting caught in cracks...Super comfy tho...
From: Matt Dimeo
Yesterday I aided up an unnamed 5.12 bolted crack system at
Mission Gorge in San Diego, giving my new Yates wall ladders
their first taste of real rock. I should state that I'm
pretty much a newbie at aid climbing, with zero walls behind
me (but I have done some clean A3 stuff), and that all my previous
experience used BD aiders.
I used them with a two aider system (since I only had 2 :-)).
Pros:
*really* easy to get your feet in the steps, compared to the
BD aiders. On both overhanging and slabby bits, you just put
your foot in the general area of the step, and it sucks it
right in.
Equally easy to get your foot out. The spreader bar keeps it
open, and your foot naturally goes to the middle of the step,
so your feet don't snag on the side rails.
The spreader bar makes a nice handle for climbing the aiders :)
Also, you can climb a single aider pretty efficiently, also due
to the spreader bar.
No foot squish at all.
They don't twist or get tangled like traditional aiders do.
I didn't have any problem with them wedging in cracks, but
this wasn't really that kind of route.
Cons:
Because of the way the aiders suspend from the middle, the
steps of a pair of aiders attached to the same point naturally
fall right on top of each other, instead of to opposite sides
as with traditional aiders. This makes the upper steps a little
awkward to get in to. The second steps were not really much of
a problem, but the top steps took some wriggling.
The steps are wide, which is good, but they snag on things,
which is bad.
I think they're a little heavier than the BD aiders.
When jugging on a slab, my foot fell out of the lower aider a
few times. This was probably due to sloppy technique on
my part.
Overall, I liked them. If I had to do a lot of top stepping,
I might prefer the BD aiders. For overhanging rock I'd pick
the yates wall ladders without hesitation. However, if someone
figures out how to make ladder-style aiders that suspend from
the side rather than from the middle, they'd really be on to
something.
From: Karl Baba
My experience, particularly for beginners is, the fewer aiders, the
better. They just wind up getting tangled and in the way. I hang on my
daisy chain and reach down to get the aiders from my previous peice.
So I use two aiders and have one bunched on a biner on my harness in
case I leave one hanging on a piece at the start of some free
climbing.
From: Chris Maytag
I prefer using four. I've tried with 2 (!) and 3, but seem to have fewer
hassles and move a little faster using four. There's more bulk to deal
with, more 'stuff' to untangle. But since you're going to have to figure
out how to deal with the tangle of gear anyway, you may as well learn it up
front using four aiders.
I do think that the 3 aider method is workable, and some folks prefer it -
try it both ways and see for yourself. Climb at least a full pitch using
each method - you'll find out pretty quick which works for you.
From: Howard Young
Harder aid and high stepping are much easier with the more cumbersome 4
aider method.
From: Fern
How about velcro tabs to hold the whole shootin' match together rather
than having to clip a bunch of steps to a biner to get the aider out of
the way? Good for rapid deployment too. See "Onsight Karak-ouram"
I have a pair of the "Onsight Karak-ouram" aiders and there are 2
things about the little velcro tabs that really bug me:
1. Unless you take the time to close up the tabs once the aider
is "deployed" the velcro takes every opportunity to stick itself to
other things like your daisies or your sweater or your harness...
2. The tabs are really tiny and, although it sounds easy in principle,
I alway find that collecting the aider back up into a tidy
accordionated package requires a good few minutes of irritating aider-
origami.
From: Russ Walling
Got a bunch of replies to the initial aider Question. Some very good
ideas for which they will be rewarded. Some pretty bad ideas too, of
which we won't mention.
Boils down to this:
All the steps on one side seems to be the way to go. This will probably
be our new standard aider. Cheap, effective, and easy to make.
Optional grab loops are your choice.
Euro Style is good too, although the handle at the top is "gay", and
they are "heavy". But, even with those points against it, they are
still real good when you use them. Personal prefs will rule. Looks
like this will be our heavy and expensive aider.
As for the step inserts (plastic strips or cable inside the steps), much
division. Some guys say they are the bomb, some guys say they are total
crap, get kinked, and get stuck on everything. So, still undecided on
this one. More testing.
Biggest complaint: "the aiders fall off my feet when I jumar".
2nd biggest complaint: "the aiders are a messy bundle" when I (pick
one) free out, jumar, bivy, put them away for french free.
The first one is easy to fix three ways.... either you wrap the step
around your foot, have some sort of cinch thingy to keep the aider on
your foot or get better technique. Looking into this.
The second problem has had attempted fixes by various manufacturers with
Velcro (didn't work and grabbed everything else), elastic cord (U.V.
damage and weak) or magic buckles (gets hung up on everything then
breaks).
From: Eric Coomer
Is it important that the steps be the same length? Middendorf says so
in his "big walls" book, but I've had some conflicting advice. What do
the big wall climbers on this group say?
Absolutely. This becomes a real issue when getting in your second steps
and especially top-stepping. Different sized steps will leave you tilting
and
unbalanced. Not a good idea.
From: Dave Condit
If you stand around a lot in your aiders without moving (if the route is way
hard or you're way slow) it's slightly more comfortable to have steps for both
feet that are the same length. If they're off just slightly, it's no big deal,
but if you're using two different brands with big differences it can be a real
pain (pun intended). If you've ever used the two aider method then you know
what slight differences feel like (because of the extra biner, one always hangs
lower...or sow my wife tells me.)
From: Kelly Rich
Not that I'm over-experienced in this area, but I use a set of
2" steps and a set of alpine aiders.
Split them up, so you have one 2" and one alpine aider on
each side. The steps gotta match, but then you get the best of
both worlds--the setup is pretty light, and you're stylin' when
you're hanging around and you've got that set of super comfy 2"ers.
Should I use the "new" Russian aider system? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: MadDog
You can avoid the hasle of all that web by buying the Trango Russian Aider
system. It's lighter, more compact and more efficient than any
system I've used. When you order, get an extra aider sling. If you find
yourself in an awkward position, using two slings instead of one will give
you more leverage. If you read the mags, they say that the lack of a high
step is a problem but it isn't - just step into the cam loop, wire loop or
top biner. I use two Yates adjustable daisy chains plus one conventional
daisy that I girth hitch and wrap around the waist until needed. Order the
Yates daisy chains 4 or 6" extra long.
The first time you have to do a ton of jugging, you will love and worship me
for this recommendation.
From: Brutus of Wyde
Had the chance to use the russian system on Tempest this fall. It rocks.
We encountered everything from the extremely steep (the second pitch
resembles the *underside* of a spiral staircase) to horizontal and downward-
sloping roofs, to rivet ladders just off vertical (as in, 95 degrees or so).
I can say "unequivocally," can you? (sure ya can!)
that without the russian aiders I would have had to use a cheater stick
on a number of pitches. Ya can intellectualize all you want, until
you experience these things in a long reach situation, you prolly won't
get it.
I used a set with 4 ring tapes "aid-triers" as Trango calls them. By the end
of the climb, one of my partners was borrowing them every time he
led. (our other partner, using standard aiders,
was having reach problems, even though his reach exceeds
mine by a good 8 inches.)
The Trango aiders are good, but could use some reinforcement where
the aider wraps around the foot. I noted a few other minor modifications
I would make if I were designing them, but all in all, my rating is four
thumbs up (I'm all thumbs when aiding) vs. only one thumb up for
standard aiders. (And you can guess where that thumb is going, cantcha?)
From: Erik Sandelin
Just got back from Pinnacles trying out my new Russian aiders and I
quote Brutus on this: They rock!
With my complete lack of organizational skills my normal set of aiders
normally ends up in a big clusterfuck, but none of that happened
today. And they were great when I led a pitch m´with mixed free and
aid. Couldn't be easier to get out and in of the aiders. Not to
mention jumaring where your feet for sure will stay in the etriers,
and you don't have a couple of extra foot steps that get caught in
cracks and on gear.
From: Rich Wachtel
I used a prototype (From Trango) on a recent ascent of Leaning Tower and
will be writing a review for Rock and Ice in an upcoming issue. It uses a
stirrup for the calf which has a titanium fifi type hook at just below the
knee. The aiders have titanium rings about every 12 inches or so. You
ascend by placing the fifi hook into one of the rings and standing up.
This took a while to get used to but once I had it dialed I definately
climbed faster and could get higher over the piece (topstepping) easier.
The whole setup replaces the 2 sets of aiders people typically use so it's
about 1/4 as bulky, which is very nice. It's a slick system.
From: Brutus of Wyde
Well, if you top step a normal set of aiders, one's knee is higher
than the piece, I would infer from this that you'll be able to get a
bit more reach with a standard aider than a set-up like you have
described.
Yup, however as I understand the setup (which is indeed not new,
having been in use in Russia for quite a few years) the leverage
allowed by the attachment at the leg enables easier and more
"hands-free" "topstepping" on terrain substantially steeper than
allowed by our traditional stirrup system.
From: Phil Box
Hey , just received my new set of Russian Aiders and a set of Metolius easy
daiseys. This system rocks. I had to order them over the net as one cannot
procure these items anywhere in Oz. Anyway I tried them out last weekend at
Frog. I chose a desperat shallow thin crack up a slightly less than 90
degree slab. Things were going along swimmingly although I had to work at
finding the placements when after placing the smallest slider nut I started
to bounce test it and it blew (surprised me actually as these jiggers really
hold well usually).
The result of the slider blowing is that having weighted only one aider
in the piece to be tested I was still hooked into the other aider and as I
was top stepping I was above my last piece consequently the small fall left
me hanging on my knee as opposed to hanging in my easy aider or rope. Before
you ask, yes I did have the rope attached to my last piece and if memory
serves me correctly the easy aider was drawn up tight so no slack was in the
system.
Why am I bringing all this to your attention, dunno really, just
mentioning it as something to watch out for if yer gunna hyper extend the
top stepping to reach that elusive just out of reach placement. It was all
good, no injuries, had fun but I got absolutely toasted on a wall that faced
into the afternoon sun, gotta keep that water up to ya eh.
From: Mike Schaefer
I used the Russian Aiders on a bigwall in Alaska and absolutely loved them.
The worked great for going from Aid to free and likewise. They are very
compact and not nearly as bulky as traditional aiders. I didn't need to use
my fifi hook nearly as much with the russian aiders. Learning to jumar with
them can be kinda hard but once figured out they worked great. I wouldn't
recommend this system for really steep walls as it can be kinda hard to step
up in them. But for routes that have a mix of free and aid they are the
best.
From: MadDog
I wouldn't recommend this system for really steep walls as it can be kinda hard to step
up in them
That's the reason to get the extra aider. It only weighs a few ounces and
is compact, so carrying it is no problem. But on steep terrain, or, for
example, turning a bulge inside a big flare or chimney, you just use 1 aider
per leg and you can get better leverage. I have used them on a near
horizontal ceiling with no problems.
From: OLM (posted on gunks.com)
I have used it. In fact, it's the only one I've used. The biggest advantage I see is that it's light and not as bulky and you can have more then two "ladders" with you. Downside - it has to be adjusted to the person and you can't give yours to someone without spending 15 mins to readjust.
Which ascenders should I buy? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Nathan Sweet
I just bought the Petzel's and they are awesome. I researched all the
opinions on rec. climbing with a deja search for "jumar assenders", and
after wading thru 20 pages of results narrowed my decision to the Petzel's
and the CMI's.
From: Staff @ ClimberOnline
CMI are very strong, but a little small where your paws go. The thumb
action on the cams is good while ascending near your tie-in point and on
traverses.
Petzl are almost as strong and will hold 30 of you anyway. The handles are
bigger and generally more comfortable than the CMI's. The thumb action took
a little getting use to, but not impossible.
Jumars are similar to CMI's for ergonomics. Are these cast aluminum? Back
them up, top-to-bottom with sling.
Good luck choosing. If it was up to us, get the CMI's. Petzl's are pretty
sweet units also.
From: the FunHog
CMI's ascenders are heavier than Jumars, but rated for greater strength. They are
also uncomfortable to use unless you add some tape as padding. Second, as the owner and user of
Jumars (both grey and yellow), Clog Expeditions, Old Petzls and now Yates/DMM/Clog ISC
ascenders, I have found in every case that they are, indeed, handed. I prefer to keep the solid
side to the outside as a guard, also that the ergonomics of wrist supination allows me to easily
orient the ascender so I can visualize the works when unclipping ad re-clipping a rope. Of all
the ascenders that I own, only the Jumars have a trigger that is easily reachable from either
side of the ascender. On all the rest, you'd have to blindly operate the trigger with your index
finger instead of your thumb. On the Clogs, this is damn near impossible.
Use anything enough and you'll learn to operate them and like them.
From: Jim Cormier
Petzl (light, great perfomance, good price, and probably the most popular)
Jumar, a close second (great perfomance, somewhat expensive, the problems are
they are cast, which makes them a little weaker, and they should be rigged
with webbing tie in to the upper point and tape it to the handle).
From: Eric Hirst
I like my Petzls fine -- very secure to the point where I don't
feel the need to tie in short too often. They also work on frozen
ropes. They take some fiddling to take on and off the rope, but
you learn how to do this quickly enough. They were a real pain
on an ancient, rotten, wet fixed line I ventured up a few weeks
ago (they were sticky), but no regrets.
My friend's new model Jumars seem quite nice. I don't think
they're supposed to be OK on frozen ropes, though.
I didn't really like the Clogs the one time I used them -- too heavy and
bulky. They work on icy ropes, but I think the Petzls beat them
on most counts. Maybe if you were jugging K2 in boxing gloves?
No experience with CMI.
Basically, though, I think all these models, except maybe the Clog,
are perfectly good. Whatever you buy will be the ones you'll swear
by. If you look at enough magazine pics, you will see that
any of them will work well enough to let you follow A5!
From: Rex Pieper, 4/13/2002
Stay away from petzl if
you dont plan on doing to much icy stuff. The teeth suck. I have helped a
couple of people actually file them down. They grab the slack rope to easy
making it a bitch to feed your lower ascender and down jugging an ordeal
all
its own.
Actually Ron, that's no longer true. The newer versions of the Petzl
ascender have far less aggressive teeth and down jugging is no problem.
I think they also modified the curve of the cam to ease the tendency
it had to grab at inopportune times.
I owned a set of the old ones too and those I DID have to file the
teeth down.
The only thing I had to modify on the newer Petzl ascenders was the
thumb trigger. The edge was a bit too sharp for my tastes, but a quick
filing rounded the plastic down nicely.
From: David Harris
I should point out that I used Clogs for many years
and liked them very much. I would have replaced my old Clogs with new
Clogs if they had been available at any kind of reasonable price. They
went on and off the rope more conveniently than the Jumars do, they
were smooth and easy to use, any yes, they did have room for big
mittens (for those interested in jugging K2 in boxing gloves).
From: Ken Cline
Jumars are nice on big walls because they don't snag the rope are
greedily as petzls when down-jugging. A big name big-waller I ran
into earlier this year agreed that he liked Jumars for big walls,
but he said he'd pick Petzls if he had to choose one brand for all
types of climbing.
From: Kalin Kozhuharov
Petzl's Ascension! Reliable and conformable. If you expect a lot of
jugging, some tape on the handle will even help you more. Don't buy the
old model - it's handle is not so good.
Using 11mm Dynamic and 10.5mm Dynamic
Well, if that is the only option... Starting on a 50m hanging 10.5 mm
DYNAMIC rope can be a challenge. And knowing that 20 meters above you
the rope is lying on that edge! Until you get 20 m up, your rope may be
gone (or at least the middle 1 meter or so ;-)
From: Kevin
I could agree, the petzl ascenders are best: comfy, but don't damage the
sheath too badly. (Not to me at least, yet). Opening the cam is pretty easy
to do, just give it a little practice. I'd advise you to maybe get a static
rope for the ascenders tho. The 11mm, probably won't be that bad, but juggin
up a 10.5 dynamic can be kinda springy. Like Kalin said, practise with your
new toys near the ground, just a basic thing. Whatever you do, i hope you
enjoy yourself. Ascending is tough work, but it's not that bad. The best
thing you could do is to ask to use the jumars at a climbing store, just
grab a harness and use a rope that they hopefully already have set up for
trying out harnesses.
From: Rex Pieper
I've heard good things about the USHBAs (including the fact that
they will hold in either direction) but it's totally different grip
was just *too weird* for me to seriously consider switching
systems after such a long time of jugging one way.
From: Thor Lancelot Simon
Has anyone here used USHBA's titanium
They're very, very ergonomic. This is a plus if you're going to do
a lot of jugging. Big, rubber-covered handle that you get to pull
on with it horizontal; much easier on the hands than Jumars or even
the plastic grip on the Petzls.
On the other hand, there's no simple trick to keep the rope feeding
through on the first several strides like there is with Jumars or
Petzls (pinch the cam back, *carefully*). So starting a jug if
you can't keep the rope pulled tight below you can be a bit tricky
From: Hank Moon
Several respondents to this thread have mentioned that "CMI's are stronger".
True, but only partly. When ascender manufacturers list a high breaking
strength and say their units are "stronger," they are usually referring to
the breaking strength of the frame. In other words, the frame is slowly
pulled apart by a tensile testing machine and that number used as the
breaking strength of the ascender. The problem with this approach to
breaking strength is that it fails to reflect what takes place when that
"stronger" frame is placed on a kernmantle rope.
Example: the breaking strength of the primary lower attachment point of a
Petzl Ascension is 20 kN, or about 4480 lbs. Seems plenty strong (BTW, the
EN major axis minimum strength requirement of your average climbing
carabiner is also 20 kN). Now, put that same ascender on a brand-new, 10.5
mm dynamic rope and what happens? The rope sheath breaks at around 6 kN in a
slow pull test and at around 4.7 kN in a factor one fall drop test.
I leave it to you to decide: which is more relevant, the frame strength, or
the strength of the ascender-rope interface?
Which portaledge should I buy? Should I buy a single or a double? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Lee Purvis
I recently bought a double portaledge and really like it. For me the
biggest plus is that none of my friends have portaledges and I pretty much
always aid with a partner, so it just made sense. If all your friends and
partners already have ledges, then the choice may not be so simple.
From: Michael Schein
If you're taller than 6 feet or so you won't fit in a double. Also
it's nice to have your own ledge at the end of a long day. Especially
if your partner's diet consists of sardines and beans. :-)
However, a double weighs considerably less than two singles, so
you can take more beer.
From: Christian Brooks
I have an A5 double and have been very happy with it. I have also slept in
a BD and it was equally nice. I got the A5 because it was cheaper.
From: Lon Harter
Get the double! you will be glad you did it's better for two and more room
for one. I would recommend buying one from "Fish".
Russ has been making these and test as well as
using these for years. He cares about his products and the climbing
community.
From: Ed Huckle
I would also suggest looking into FISH products, for I have heard so
many good reports of the ways the company treats their customers.
However I would also suggest that if you and your brother are large I
would consider 2 singles instead of a double. My partner and I are both
in the 6 foot tall, 185 pound size and we were very squished in the FISH
double. The other doubles don't look any bigger. If you are smaller
then maybe the double is the way to go, especially for expense and
setup.
From: Dave Fasulo
I have a North Face/A5 Double Ledge - it is great! Sleeps two comfortably or
three star lodging for one. Very well made. The standard rain fly is easier
to get on, the expedition rain fly has a floor.
From: Rex Pieper
Having just spent 7 nights on the A5 flagship, Cliff Cabana I'd say
GO FISH! Really! I prefer my FISH 5 Season single ledge over that A5
piece of over-designed crap anyday. The BD is kinda sweet, but
damn, it's way too heavy.
I hate the Cabana. Even worse is the expedition fly. Neither is quick to
set up "right" and the Cabana, while larger, tended to crush my shoulders
more than the regular A5 Double (I'm 6'1"). I found both versions very
prone to twisting along it's axis if the straps weren't adjusted perfectly.
YMMV.
I prefer my FISH single, a bit of sag and all because it's quick to deploy.
I've never used a FISH double, but would probably prefer it over the A5
based on spending 17 nights in A5 ledges this past year.
I'd gladly trade 5-10 lbs of weight (I'm a good counterweight so hauling
isn't an issue) for the BD for 15 minutes of setup time when a storm is
brewing. I'm interested in the BD/Bibler Wall Tent combo. That pairing
looks like the shit!
From: Dave Condit
I have an A5 Cliff Cabana. It's plenty large and doesn't weigh too much. The
extra space is great on storm days.
. . . and later . . .
I'd have to agree with Rex on this one. I have a Cliff Cabana and find it to
be a major pain in the butt. It's useless for solo (it's too big to handle at
a hanging belay without an extra set of hands), and it's got so many little
doodads and straps on it that it ends up looking like a plate of spaghetti and
meatballs. All I want to do is crawl into my warm sleeping bag, and I end up
fighting with my ledge...I thought we were supposed to be friends!
From: Greg Kneser
I have used the Black Diamond ledge and it was very nice in
setup/takedown. I have no experience with other ledges, so my advice
isn't too great, but I do know that you can get the BD double ledge with
a bibler tent-like fly that would seem from their reputation to keep you
happy in nasty weather.
From: Chris Watford
The new BD ledge ROCKS! Well worth the money. Sets up in no time
From: Geoff Jennings
I like mine, super easy to set up. Of course, it's the only ledge I've ever
used, so I may not be the best person to ask. It is HEAVY. I have the
double. Make your partner carry it.
From: Ben Craft
I've used the Pika, Fish and A5/TNF. The pika was very light but narrow
and a little wobbly, the A5 was pretty bomber but heavy. The Fish seemed
just about right.
From: Scott Ghiz
Go with FISH. Great service, great gear. If you have a question, you get
to talk to the Grand-Poo-Bah himself .
From: Jeffrey Pappen
Hands down, A-5 is a superior quality product. However, you will pay
more for the quality. Their expedition fly is bombproof and far more
protection that any Fish fly I've seen. Also, the quality of the A-5
frame blows away Fish. A few years back, I setup my new double A-5
ledge, and another guy setup his new double fish ledge side by side.
His only responce was. "Damn It! Now I have *serious* ledge envy".
From: Brutus of Wyde
On one "Trip" this year, I had the opportunity
to set up and dismantle both a Fish double
and an A-5 double. It was my experience that
the Fish was far easier to assemble, and was
plenty sturdy for our needs.
From: Clyde Soles
After practicing, I could set both up just as fast. The A5 is more prone
to jamming from grit though. I suspect it's aluminum to aluminum
connectors are the problem -- this improves as they get worn. Pikas
tolerances aren't quite as tight. After any ledge has been beat up a
bit, you may need to de-burr the tubing edges for ease of
assembly/disassembly. The A5 has a more rigid frame but in practice it
is a moot point.
The flys are (I think) made from the same weight of material.
Nope. A5 uses a much better quality triple coating on the fabric and has
far fewer seams. It takes a lot more work on your part to waterproof the
Fish but you save $80 ($105 - $25 for extra seam seal and nikwax recoat)
and his fabric is more abrasion resistant.
You do get a zipper door on the a5 though.
Only on the Expedition fly (I wouldn't recommend this except for winter
and alpine climbs). The standard fly has no doors or vents. Fish gives
you two big vents (on the double). Both have fly poles now (great
feature).
Having just gone through all this for the next issue (out in 3 weeks), I
don't see the difference as being cut and dried. Both A5 and Fish offer
good ledges -- each has advantages and disadvantages. Russ does have a
better catalog though ;-) Pika may eventually be a strong contender.
From: Tramm Hudson
Now, I'm not a very tall guy and have no trouble sleeping
in a regular length sleeping bag, but my Pika single ledge
seems too short for anyone over 160cm. If I stretch at all
while sleeping either my head or my feet hit the rain fly.
Do they expect us to sleep in the fetal position?
And a brief pursual of the A5 catalog shows their double ledge
as shorter than their single. If the A5 single is only as long
as the Pika, well, that could create some difficulty...
From my comparison shopping, the Pika ledge seems to be
nearly identical to the A5 single. It uses the same milled
corners rather than the butted Fish design, the bed also wraps
around the sides and tapers to the straps, the side poles are
bungee corded together and it doesn't have the daisy chains on
the straps.. There are some differences that I noted -- the poles
are connected with accessory cord rather than wire cable, it is
more difficult to adjust the Pika bed and straps while weighted,
and it does not have any white vinyl coating on the rock-side of
the ledge or fly. For US$330, however, I can live with a duct-taped
coated ledge. I've been sleeping in it for the past two weeks
until I find a real bed and it is very comfortable.
See also:
How are aid climbs rated? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Tim Powerll
AO is
something you pull on when freeclimbing, no aiders. A1 is anything with
easy placements or straight clip-ins (bolt ladders). A3 is harder aid,
stacks, rurps, heads that are a little dicey. A4 is difficult placements,
body weight only, won't hold a fall. A5 is a sixty footer or more if you
pop.
From: Russ Walling
Here's how I understand it......present day ratings for routes done in the
last 10 years.
A0: Full on bomber and easy to find. Fall potential no more than 20-30
feet. Ex: Nose, Salathe, Leaning Tower, South Face of the Column. etc.
A1: Easy to find and easy to place. A basic no brainer, but if you do
many dumb things in a row, you will go up to 40 feet. Ex: Lurking Fear
(A1+), Prow, Muir (A1+)
A2: Here is where it starts. Placements could be hard to find and or
awkward to place. Fall potential of up to 60 feet or more. Ex: Shield,
Mescalito (A2+), Aquarian, Tangerine Trip, Horse Chute (A2+)
A3: Big whippers hiding out here. Many tricks are used and everthing is
suspect. Rock is usually loose and bad landings may appear. Fall
potential of up to 100 feet, and possible dismemberment, but not death due
to hitting things. Ex: NA Wall (A3-) Iron Hawk (A3+), P.O. Wall,
Zenyatta (A3+)
A4: Bombs away. All known tricks are used including exhailing to make
yourself lighter. This is where lids pop off and sane humans never
venture. Fall potential: 150-200 feet with a bad landing almost assured.
Wear a helmet for the open casket hoe-down. Ex: Native Son. GulfStream
(A4+), Born Under a Bad Sign, Surgeon General, South Seas (A4-), Space.
A5: Lights out. Count on multi hour leads with about 6-10 being the
norm. Nobody falls here because you only get one. No rookies allowed.
Every piece is shitty, all the rock is bad, and you always hit things.
Fall potential: Pull the pitch. Ex: Scorched Earth?, Sheep Ranch (A5-),
Get Whacked, Plastic Surgery Disaster.
Of course all of the above are subjective blah blah...... Most of the
examples are either confirmed by someone here at FP or by the FA party.
This is real and scary. Enjoy!
From: George Bell
Wasn't it was Jim Beyer who defined A6 as like A5 but with such a bad
belay that it rips out also (i.e. RIP belayer too!). Sick! In such cases,
why even bring a rope?
Also note that unlike free climbs, aid ratings can and do change with time.
If someone puts a bolt in the middle of an A5 pitch, it could go down
to A3. Similarly, pitches can get harder if flakes or hook sites break off.
From: Brutus of Wyde
Chris MacNamara's Supertopos book has an excellent section
about how aid ratings on any given route change over time
as features break off, gear gets fixed, cracks get scarred,
etc.
From: Nate Beckwith
I hate to plug a JL book, but the new wave ratings are
described pretty well in the Big Walls book. The latest
(getting old now...) Reed book for Yosemite uses the old wave
ratings. Old wave ratings are described pretty well in the
Freedom book. Most people in the Valley now talk about the
routes according to their new wave rating. This is especially
because there are many routes that have gone up since the last
guide that are rated with the new wave system. It seems this
thread hasn't made the distinction between old wave and new
wave, which should be done when talking about the aid ratings.
To babble on... One should also keep in mind that Yosemite, to
the best of my knowledge, is the only area where the new wave
ratings are being widely applied. This is because Yosemite is
the cutting edge of aid. Colorado and several other areas are
still rated old wave. It will be much more than a subjective
difference to do A4 on Long's and new A4 on El Cap. Much much
more. Doing an A2+ at Devil's Tower does not predict your
success on the Zodiac, also A2+, new wave. Try The Window...old
A4.
The new wave system is a result of the outdating of the closed
end rating system used for aid. Aid advanced to the point where
many were suggesting adding A6. Old wave became outdated. An
updated system was both necessary and appropriate, as well as
more accurate. Who knows what 5 more years will bring. Super
new wave? Wyoming.. A2+? The thought makes me shivver. A5
anyone? It will happen...
From: David Harris
Some people say any drilling at all keeps a pitch from being
A5.
John Middendorf (who knows a fair bit about hard aid) has a page devoted to
this on his Big Wall site.
It's a good site for anyone interested in walls, and I hope John won't mind
if I quote a very brief section of direct relevant to the original poster's
question about what constitutes A5, and whether anything in Yosemite should
be so graded.
A5: Extreme aid. Nothing really trustworthy of catching a fall for
the entire pitch. Rating should be reserved only for pitches with
no bolts or rivets (holes) for the entire pitch. Examples: pitches on
the Jolly Roger and the Wyoming Sheep Ranch on El Cap, Jim
Beyer routes in Arches National Park and the Fisher Towers.
He also adds, with reference to discussing route gradings on paper...
The overall grading system never tells the true story, however.
The same Grade VI, 5.10, A4 rating could apply to a 8 pitch,
three-day route with merely one pitch of A4, and a short,
well-protected section of 5.10. Or it could represent the difficulty
of a horrendous, 30 pitch, 10 day nailup, with multiple horror show A4
pitches, and bold unprotected pitches of 5.10.
Hope that helps
From: Brent Ware
You can also check out another opinion:
A comment on the rating system by Eric Coomer
It's all A1 till you pop, and it's A5 if you hit something.
From: Eric Coomer
If an aid route rated 5.10 A2 does it mean that the rout would go
at 5.10 without aid or that in addition to the A2 aid there will be
5.10 free climbing?
This rating means that there will be free climbing up to 5.10 in
addition to aid climbing at A2.
If the latter is the case, does it mean that
the free section can't be aided without bolts, or that the aid on
the free section is harder, or that whoever did the FA preferred to
free-climb that section for speed?
It really depends. Sometimes the free climbing is mandatory and can't
be aided, sometimes it's just a crack that goes at 5.10 but can be
aided quite easily. It's a case by case thing.
Hooking 5.9-5.10 face can get pretty exciting... :)
See also:
Big Wall Ratings from Climbing Magazine
What's the most efficient way to work as a three person team? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Amanda Tarr
OK, you've got three people, Ugly, Stinky, and Shorty. You also probably
have at least two haulbags, Pig1 and Pig2.
1) Ugly leads.
2) Ugly zips up both haul lines, fixes one, and starts hauling with the
other.
3) Stinky starts jugging the fixed haul line. No, one can not tie in here.
One could back up with a prussik if one wished.
4) Shorty cleans up the belay, frees Pig1, etc.
5) Stinky reaches the belay where Ugly is hauling, transfers gear, and has
Ugly put her on a lead belay. (A grigri is nice here, because Ugly can
continue hauling)
6) Stinky starts leading, Ugly finishes hauling Pig1, and can set up the
haul for Pig2 now that Stinky is off of the haul line. *note- Stinky
must bring up her own lead line from the previous belay as the original
lead line is still running down to Shorty.
7) Ugly clears Pig2 from the lower anchor, and Shorty is then free to begin
cleaning Ugly's pitch.
8) Once Shorty reaches Ugly, the rest of the rack can be zipped up to Stinky,
if necessary.
repeat 30 times.
I did a 3 person, a 2 person, then another 3 person wall this spring, and
the differences I noticed are these:
1) 3 people create 1 massive cluster. If you don't stay on top of rope
management, etc., you'll get slowed down a lot.
2) there seems to be less exertion/person with 3 people
3) it's nice having 3 to deal with annoying crap like stuck haulbags, etc.
4) it's nice to have someone extra to make fun of
5) overall, I think that three is faster when the pitches take longer to
lead and clean (steep, long, nailing, hard, whatever). If it's an A1 route,
I think 3 would be a lot slower just due to extra cluster, but I could be
wrong. Also, I think it's important to get people who all know when they
have a job to do, and how to do it.
From: Clint Cummins
I've done a few
walls with 3 (and even 4) people, but we didn't use the fastest
system. As I recall it is something like:
1. climber A leads p1 with 11mm and trail 9mm (or 7mm).
2. fix 11mm, climber B starts cleaning immediately
3. using 9mm, A quickly hauls up second set of ropes (11mm and 9mm), and
spare gear rack. This haul can be done with just a light pulley and hands.
Spare gear rack can include a second more heavy duty pulley.
4. A fixes second 11mm.
5. A sets up hauling pully on 9mm, C cuts loose bag. A starts hauling it.
6. C jumars up second 11mm -- the "free line". If it's overhanging,
this can be a burnout.
7. When C arrives at belay, C starts leading the next pitch immediately,
using the second 11mm, the original "trail" 9mm (or 7mm), and the light pulley.
8. A continues to haul, while belaying C on the next pitch.
From: Young
I climbed the Nose with a party of three and we worked out a pretty
efficient system after a day or two.
-the leader leads the pitch taking a pulley and and trails a haulline.
-when the leader reaches the upper belay he/she fixes the haulline and the
leadline to the anchor.
-the second climber jugs up the free hauline and carries a new lead line
with him (thats the third rope).
-when the second reaches the belay, the old leader sets up a haul while the
new lead (guy who just jugged the hauline) racks up and prepares for the
next lead.
-the cleaner (guy still down below) releases the pig, lowers it out if
necessary
-the old leader hauls the bag up a little bit just to get it off the belay,
and make some slack then stops for a while.
-old leader (now belayer and hauler) belays the new leader on the next pitch
and hauls at the same time. Leader trails the slack hauline from the
partially hauled bag. If this is an aid pitch it works well cause you can
haul a few feet when the leader is dinking around with a placement.
-when the cleaner gets up to the belay, he helps finish the haul if
necessary and anchors in the pig.
-by this time the leader is well into the next lead, he stops and pulls up
gear and the pulley on the haulline he is trailing.
-now the old cleaner is just sitting around, so he can coil up the old lead
line he just jugged and get ready to jug the free hauline when the leader
finishes the pitch and fixes. He will be the next leader.
The system was fast and the only problem we had was having no gri-gri. I did
the belay/haul thing without taking my braking hand off the rope, but it was
kind of awkward sometimes. I would feel a lot better hauling and belaying at
the same time if we had a gri-gri. Sometimes when you are concentrating on
hauling you dont give the leader enough slack and he has to yell at you to
do so, but this is no big deal if your leading easy to moderate aid. We
usually got the haul done in the first 15 minutes or so of the lead anyway.
Another thing was that after jugging a freehanging hauline, carrying an
extra rope, you would be pretty tired for the next lead, but thats just too
bad cause your on a bigwall.
About pendulums:
For a traversing pitch, the freehanging hauline is a straighline to the
belay, so for a long pitch, there is usually quite a bit of extra rope to
use to lower out with. If not, we had a 9 mil tagline to lower out the pig
with and you could use that to also lower out the free hanging jug guy.
Cleaner should be able to lower out like normal with slack in the rope he is
jugging. Stuff like the King Swing is more complicated and involved rapping
the tag line somehow.
So for my 3 man system, you need a gri-gri, two good leadlines, and one
hauline. On pretty straightup stuff like Leaning tower, Prow, South Face,
etc. these three ropes are sufficient. On traversing stuff like the Nose,
Salathe, Lurking Fear etc, take 2 leadline, 1 haulrope, and a 7-9mm full
length tagline. Cause youll need it to lower out the pig and maybe yourself.
From: Clint Cummins
Not too bad; at least this system only requires 3 ropes.
Some problems (in addition to the problems already mentioned,
like jugging the free line with an extra rope) are:
1. Cleaner can't start until the other person has
jugged the free line (because the cleaner has to release the bag).
2. Free-jugger does not have much slack in the haul line for the
next pitch, if the last pitch was a long one.
3. Free-jugger may not have the right gear for the next pitch,
and may not get it for awhile, until the cleaner finishes
cleaning the entire last pitch. But this is a problem with
all systems. However, since the cleaner starts "late" in this
system, it is a worse problem.
4. Free-jugger can't advance beyond 1/2 rope length above the
belay, until the bag is hauled from the previous pitch,
and the previous pitch is cleaned. Otherwise, no pulley or
remainder of gear. Could partly solve by having another pulley.
5. Free-jugger may not have enough slack in the haul line to
haul up extra gear (in the first half of the pitch). But then
again, he may already have all the available gear.
6. If the bag gets stuck, the free-jugger may run out of slack
on the haul line and have to stop until the cleaner can help
free the bag.
I think the 4-rope system I posted is better. But it comes at
the expense of having to carry another rope, and keep that rope
from getting tangled at belays.
From: Tonia Walden
Don't forget that with 3 people you spend a lot of time space jugging
Bleach ! When we did Tangerine Trip this Spring it was the first time I
had done a wall as a party of three and while is definitely easier and
quicker in many ways the space jugging always scared the shit out of me.
Would much rather be banging iron than space jugging and overhanging line
for 50m's.
From: Russ Walling
the 3 man system is faster. If done correctly. If not done
correctly, it is exactly 9.4 times *slower* than any 2 person team.
From: Rex Pieper
Been there, done that. He's right...and don't do the 3-person route if one
of the 3 is an utter newbie...then it drops to 150% slower.
But done right....hooooooweeeee...yeah baby. Smokin!
From: Eric Coomer
the key is to make sure someone is always on lead- always. As long as you
can do this, it's definitely faster, no down time for change-overs etc.
One variation that I'm hoping to try this season is to lead in blocks. Say each
person does 2-3 pitches a day- depending on difficulty. It's a modified
catepillar
system.
Leader(person A) leads p1. trailing a tag line. At the belay A ties off lead
line. Cleaner (person B) starts cleaning pitch. A pulls up haul line(s) and
next
lead line. A gets bags off last anchor with help from C. Once bags off A sets
off soloing next pitch with new lead line- which C is also jugging on. Just
pull
up all the slack in the line and tie off to anchor. C jugs like a monkey and
hauls
bags/puts A on belay. Repeat.
After block you have one changover with C taking As place on lead.
From: Ryan
here's the way i like to do it, for what it is worth. the leader
can lead in blocks, and it only requires three ropes: lead line, haul
line, and lower out line, but the lead line and haul line must be 60
meter.
1. bob leads while dragging the haul line.
2. upon reaching the belay, bob pulls up about 50 feet of slack in the
lead line and fixes it. then he pulls up all the slack in the haul line
and fixes it.
3. jim jugs the haul line. upon reaching the anchor, he puts bob on
belay, and bob begins to lead again.
4. jim puts the haul line through a wall hauler, and biff (the cleaner)
lowers out the bags
5. biff cleans the pitch. upon reaching the belay, he send all the gear
up to bob. next he hauls the bag.
the idea is that bob will exhaust his left over rack and small
amount of rope just as the cleaner reaches the belay.the advantages of
this system are that bob is in near constant motion, and there is no
fourth rope involved to complicate things. if bob gets tired, he can
swith roles with jim. biff cleans and hauls all day.
See also:
Three Person Technique from FISH
Aid Climbing: Page 1 2 3
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Suffer short term memory loss
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The Road to The Nose from SuperTopo.com
Big Walls - Useful Tips for First Timers
Opinions concerning big walls - how to get started (11/96)
Info on aid in NH
New Hampsire Aid Climbs
Cannon Aid climbing (NH)
Gunks Aid Guide
Aid routes at Seneca?
Aid lines at Seneca??
Moores Wall NC Aid Climbing?
Moore's Wall NC,,Need Aid Route Suggestion
Aid routes at Looking Glass NC
East Coast Aid
Clean aid climbing in the East
Looking for easy grade III (day) aid climb in Yosemite/Zion
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Starter Aid Routes (Yosemite)
Yosemite: good aid-solo practice route?
Aid practice in Yosemite
Easy aid pitches in Yosemite
Aid Climbing in Southern California
Thaquitz/Suicide Aid?
Aid line @ Tahquitz/Suicide
Clean aid climbs in J-Tree (CA)
Aid at J-Tree
Squamish beginner aid routes
Smith aid reccomendations
Easy clean aid on the Front Range
Front Range Aid climbs
Clean Aid Routes in Colordo
Aid Climbing in Boulder Canyon?
Comparison of Australian "M" grades with US "A" grade on Google Groups
hard A4 vs. easy A5 on Google Groups
How do I belay two seconds simultaneously? / How can we climb efficiently as a party of three? on Tradgirl for free climbing with three people
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