How do I sharpen my tools and crampons?
How do I make a home ice wall?
What are current ice climbing conditions at [place]?
What should I use for eye protection / a helmet?
Which boots should I buy?
Which crampons should I buy?
Which ice tools should I buy?
Which screws should I get? / How do I place ice screws?
What about titanium ice screws?
What gloves should I wear while ice climbing?
See also: Mountaineering FAQ
Is ice climbing for me? / How do I get started?
[back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Arnaud
it just looks like
climbing up a wall of jugs. whack kick pull up whack etc etc.
Whack kick ice shatters blade pops out rewhack pull up kick hold
position put in icescrew clip phew crampons ripping out whack hard ice
colapse die.
From: Pete Atkinson
Why ice climb? well apart from the fact that i get a huge buz out of being
scared shitless most of the time, its because its so so beautiful. The most
blistful day i have ever had was on smiths route belaying in the cave, with
a fringe of icicles, drowning me in a rainbow of light. Its nature at its
rawest, a route is never the same route, it changes in character everytime
it is climbed. What worked on the lead, may not be their for the second. It
is total commitment. And the fun dont stop there either! Oh that long slide
back down No4 gully!!!! I have never met more sane a group of climbers than
ice climbers!!!
From: Pedro Espina
To find out if ice climbing is for you,
1. Ask, read, and loose as much sleep as possible wondering what style of ice gear
is right for you.
2. Bring you VISA card to your closest climbing store and spend all of next year's
disposable income on equipment that somebody in rec.climbing recommended based on
hearsay.
3. Hide the gear at home and try to control the fear that the thought of "your
wife finding out that you just spend $3K that you didn't have" will bring to your
heart.
4. Using a 10 lbs. frozen sea bass, smash the backside your fingers until you
can't hold the frozen carcass any longer.
5. In front of an open refrigerator, strip to your underwear, place 10 or 12 ice
cubes around your testicles, poor a gallon of cold water over your head, and
repeat "Man... This is f*cking great!".
6. Tie yourself to a massive object just under the balconies of your local
retirement home, display a sign that reads "Safe my future... Reduce Social
Security benefits now!", and try to survive the barrage of large hurling objects
coming your way.
7. Ask your neighbor to tie his Rottweiler with a shoelace at the other side of a
4 foot fence. Smack the dog a couple of times and repeat "If the string breaks,
the fence will hold him back... the fence will hold... the fence will hold..."
8. Call-in thick Friday morning. Jump in the car with a couple of guy with
questionable personal hygiene and drive for 13 hours strait. Get our of the car,
realize that there is no ice to be climbed and return home feeling still exited
about the prospects for ice climbing the next weekend.
9. Find out, from your new friends, that half of the gear that you bought in step
#2 is really worthless and that "...only 'Posers' buy that stuff".
and finally,
10. Over a romantic dinner, tell your wife that she will be on-her-own for
Thanksgiving, X-mas, New Year's, Martin Luther King Day, and Presidents' Day,
because you will be driving "up-north" with "the guys".
If you can satisfy the requirements stated above, ice climbing may be for you. In
that case see http://www.erols.com/espina/Climbing/ for some inspiration.
From: David Harris
I's not like anything else. When it's perfect it's better than
the best combination of drugs and sex imaginable. When it's bad, you
die.
From: funkraum
Avoid buying your own gear as long as you possibly can, especially the
axes. See if you can borrow or hire as many different types of gear as
possible and see what works for you on the type of ice you climb most
often.
From: Kevin Dyck
I suggest finding a friend or guide who will take you out for a day so
you can experience it without the initial outlay of a grand for gear
(plus winter clothes if you don't have them). That's what I did, and I
swear that I was in love with the first swing of the axe. 'Great' I
thought while climbing, 'Another thing to sink my cash into.' Totally
addictive, and more fun than a tramp on a friday night (unless she
climbs ice too)! In the beginning it tends to be a little more brute
force than rock, but it does require technique and finesse. Plus you get
to kick the shit out of stuff with dangerous weapons, and no cops!!!
From: Sam Gilbert
Ice Climbing is the logical passtime for a rock climber
seeking that reeling feeling in the winter.
As a progression of mountaineering skills,
one should learn to climb vertical ice,
but I suggest that you try climbing a few 45-degree,
snow-covered mountains first.
Get used to the cold vertical world and see if it's for you.
Learn the basic skills involved in winter mountaineering.
It really all depends on how ambitious you are.
..and how much spare time you have -
(Who said quit you job and climb full time?)
From: arockclimber
Take many pairs of gloves. You will get them wet and then you'll freeze if you don't have any dry ones. A baclava really helps on those days when it's cold and the wind is cranking. Take some sort of puffy coat (preferably synthetic, down will do) for while you're standing around. If you're "ice cragging", it'll be a stop and go activity and you'll want the coat for belaying. Dress heavy on the legs, once you're in thigh deep snow or have boots on forget trying to add layers to your bottom. Adjust for conditions with your upper body clothing. If you don't have any waterproof clothes, I'd take your own car to the crag. That way when you get wet you can go home when you start freezing too badly. If your buddies are all decked out in GTX, they will probably want to stay longer than you will (or go with a buddy who will have pity when you jeans start to freeze solid). Take a thermos of hot tea and lots of food. It'll make you feel better to have something warm to drink and eat, as well as make you popular with folks who didn't bring any of this stuff. I don't know if you rock climb with a helmet, but you'll want one for ice. Lots of ice will fall, and if a tool rips out you'll want your helmet to stop it, not your scalp. If you have "cold" hands or feet, get those chemical hand/foot warmers for cold days.
From: Sketchball
1) Ice climbing takes place below freezing, sometimes well below. Dress accordingly. In more temperate areas it is Ok to get cold and wet while in colder areas getting cold and wet can have fatal conequences.
2) Climbing without good crampons and boots on ice is like climbing with steel toe boots on rock. You can do it but it won't be much fun and you will be forced to use techniques which do not require much footwork.
3) Make sure that the "more experienced" people you go out with are experienced enough to know what they are doing. Ice has hazards like pillars collapsing and so on that rock does not and require some knowledge to evaluate. so I would say don't go out for your first time ice climbing with a buddy that has just started ice climbing, go with someone who has done it for a few years and knows what's what - or even go with a guide if you have the $$$$$ to spare. That said the second time I went ice climbing it was on a guide-taught course and I didn't learn a thing I didn't already know. It was a big waste of $$$ and if I had the choice again I wouldn't have wasted my money on that "course".
From: Matt Rose
It was a splendid introduction to winter climbing and we came to a few
conclusions that I relate here for comments
* It doesn't take much to make a pick placement rock solid and dependable
* It also isn't hard to make it difficult to remove your pick afterwards!
* There's a big difference between 70 and 80 degrees.
* Probably a large part of technique at easier grades is conservation of
energy
* Axe placements feel far, far better than crampons: perhaps I should have
sharpened my front points? Perhaps I ought to wear more expensive ones?
* One should always remember that near to frozen waterfalls, there may be
live ones under a subtle covering of snow.
* We both wanted to do a lot more of this.
See also:
Trip reports:
My First Time Ice Climbing by Geoff Jennings (1/00) on Google Groups
Books:
How to Ice Climb by Craig Luebben
How do I sharpen my tools and crampons? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Pat Nay
Can you recommend the correct file for sharpening crampons and ice axes?
The correct file would be a Mill Bastard file. I use a 10" one but you could probably get away with a smaller file. As to the correct filing method, always make sure your file strokes go in the direction away from the tang ( the pointy thing at the bottom of the file) so you are pushing it away from your body.
From: Ed Huesers
People have a hard time understanding the "away from you" idea and I had one employer tell a worker, "If I had wanted you to stroke it both directions, I would have given you a piece of sand paper".
This is important as if you drag the file backwards, it will dull the file. Hardened and tempered steel is real hard on files and they won't last long if used improperly. It also helps to used slow strokes.
From: Ed Huckle
I definetly prefer a small file. As for how to tune the crampons, and especially the ice axe I think it is described in How to Ice Climb by Craig Luebben (I think he is the author, better check). There were also some Tech Tips in Climbing or Rock&Ice several (maybe a year) issues ago which I think described tuning your ice pick.
From: Julian Smith
use a flat bastard file for about ninety percent of your sharpening needs. think smooth strokes, in the same direction. end result should be flat surfaces coming together in a sharp, precision blade. get a small triangular file and a small round file too, make sure they have handles for comfort. if you feel adventurous, carefully experiment on your screws with the round and triangular file.
From: Michael Gordon
I recently bought a set of Grivel Crampons (G12, the type to strap on
hiking boots). The instructions to sharpen the points are unclear:
"File the sidepoints as sharp as possible on the front and back edges,
not on the sides and be careful to maintain a straight line from the
frame to the tip. Frontpoints should be sharpened on the sides only,
not the top or bottom, being careful to keep the point centered."
Can anyone clarify these instructions for me?
Steve: don't want to sound like an asshole, but if you hold the crampon in front of you (and these instructions), and read slowly while looking at the crampon, it should be pretty clear what the instructions are telling you.
From: Thor Lancelot Simon
1) It's worth reiterating all over again once more that ice gear should
NEVER be sharpened with anything but a hand file. In particular, a
Dremel is a very bad idea -- the small grinding wheel and high RPM will
lead to a very fast local build-up of heat which will damage your
gear.
2) Some idiots have been known to try to "clean up" the teeth on old, beat
ice screws with careful application of a file -- for example, me. I've
tried that. AFAICT it never makes things any way but worse. "Don't try
to sharpen screws".
3) Many brands of ice tools now come with "pre-tuned" picks for which the
procedure illustrated in the Luebben book is not necessary or beneficial.
Current BD picks are close, and Trango picks are already "just right" per
Luebben's diagram. I saw some Omega (Smiley) tools with picks that looked
to be all right straight out of the box, too. In fact, the only picks
I've seen lately that required the full-on procedure Luebben describes
were the picks on a pair of Simond Najas, a tool that's almost impossible
to buy right now in North America anyway. (Shame, since those are really,
really nice tools, particularly for people with small hands). If you *do*
need to do the full tuning job, expect it to take a long time -- I did
one of the Naja picks last night and (albeit with a small file) it took
almost forty minutes. I gave up without doing the pick on the other tool
so this weekend I'll be using my other tools again. :-)
Recommended Books:
Ice World : Techniques and Experiences of Modern Ice Climbing by Jeff Lowe
See also:
Sharpening ice screws with a Dremel tool from NEice.com
How do I make a home ice wall? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Daniel Eubank
They used chain link fencing material for initial ice formation on the artificial wall at the ESPN XGames.
From: Ender Batur
I have thought of that myself, sometime ago. Never practiced though, because the freezing season is short. You should consider preventing freezing the water in the hose/pipe feeding the top drip. First the feeder hose/pipe should be insulated all the time. It should keep dripping/spraying until the main block is formed, therefore it should run in the night as well. Flexible electric heater tapes should be wrapped, under the insulation, all along the feeder pipe/hose to the tip in order to keep the water running. Ice build-up at even the tip will prevent the dripping. Water should be drained from the pipe/hose when not in use. Deep strong spikes should be hammered down at the base to the ground, in advance, to prevent shifting/sliding the ice block under its own weight, once it is formed. You should plan ahead the toprope anchor if you are not leading. You can add additional profiles by spraying water from ground once the main block is formed.
From: Tramp
The main crossbar should be something HUGE. Ice can get really heavy. The chainlink fence seems like a good idea. Maybe you could prefill it with a lighter material like a cheap natural fiber rope or twine.
From: Kevin Pogue
We just purchased and installed 6 sheets of Entreprises' new "dry ice" on our 32' high outdoor climbing wall. For those of you not familiar with it, it consists of 2' by 9'sheets of 2" thick high density styrofoam scalloped and painted blue to look like ice. We mounted three sheets above one another and bolted them to the wall using conventional climbing holds like big washers. We picked holds that could easily be hooked with an an axe to simulate dry tooling. We used 6-bolts per sheet, bolting them to the concrete via long bolts into drop-in anchors. The stuff is really fun to climb. Every tool sticks like crazy on the first whack but they are more difficult to remove (even when placed without much force) than in most placements in real ice. I found my old tools like my old Chouinard zero, were the easiest to remove. New tools with high droop angles and lots of big teeth are a pain to remove. We have cut up one panel and bolted it in small sections between conventional holds to one part of the wall to simulate mixed climbing. The stuff seems to be holding up much better than I thought it would and should last at least through this winter with our level of use.
From: Bill S, 9/19/2002
I tried it out on EntrePrise's demo climbing pillar at the Outdoor
Retailers Show in August. Yes you can stick your tools in it and not
claw a seam. The big problem was that you can't get the tools back out.
The stuff kind of seals up around the picks and front points, especially
if the picks have their teeth. As I went up the wall, I kept doing
lighter and lighter placements, but even when I got to the top and was
carefully only going to just short of the first tooth, it was still a
struggle to get the tools back out. They had a few holds on the wall, so
I ended up hooking them at several points, rather than sticking the
wall, just to make it easier. The claim was that the stuff lasts about a
year's worth of use. I didn't ask what level of use - like one of the
super-crowded gyms, or casual home use.
In short - yeah, it works, but it is definitely not like real ice.
From: Ken Cline
A friend has dead oak tree that we use for ice climbing
practice. Leading the overhanging side (clipping unwelded hardware
store screw eyes for pro) provides much of the physical challenge
and some of the risk of climbing ice (did I mention that the tree died
10 years ago"?). Tools hold well, but a pick optimized for ice is not
the best for wood.
From: Julie Haas
Grivel makes an 'indoor pick'
No garuntees of your gym-owner calming down, though. Plastic picks might be
easier on the holds, but you're still a dangerous falling object in a
crowded place.
See also:
Axeons - bolt-on hold placements for ice axes
What are current ice climbing conditions at [place]? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
Adirondacks - Adirondack Rock & River Guide Service
What should I use for eye protection / a helmet? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Geoff Snyder
When I started ice climbing, every serious ice climber I knew had a big smiley scar above their eye where they took an adze to the forehead while cleaning an overdriven tool. I decided to climb on 2 hammers from then on... until about 3 years ago when I got a great deal on some tools (1 axe, 1 hammer). About mid season, and before my lazy ass had bothered to change the adze for a hammer, the tool blew on a mixed route in Vail and promptly chopped me in the eyebrow. That one bled a lot too... the embarrassing part was begging for a butterfly bandage, as (of course) I'd neglected to pack the 1st aid kit...
From: Gerard
Again depending on conditions, you might like some eye pro preferably something that doesn't explode into nasty shards when struck by a blunt, heavy object. Some ice climbers use polycarbonate glacier glasses. My fellow rope mate once lost that tiny screw on his glacier glasses, upon return he immediately used goggles. If you choose the goggles opt for some shock-resistant yellow polycarbonate and stay away from open-cell foam stuff because it absorbs water too easily and during ICE climbing . . .
From: Matt Schofield
If you get goggles get some double-glazed ones. They're a lot harder to fog up.
From: Ken Cline
Reports from people using them (Grivel Winter Cap) in Ouray were very positive. The visor seems to have a tendency to fall off and has to be modified to stay in place reliably though.
From: Thor Lancelot Simon
I think the Grivel Cap kicks ass, myself. Comfortable, light, strong, and able to withstand repeated full-force blows with an ice tool from the magazine reviewers.
From: Brian Nystrom
This year, I've been using a product called Airoshield. It's designed for cycling, but it can be adapted for climbing. They come in different shapes and lens tints. Unlike hockey shields, the Airoshield is flexible. It deflects ice chips and water just fine (which is what I wanted it for), but won't keep big chunks from whacking you. In order to mount it on a Petzl Ecrin Roc, I replaced the standard mounting hardware with Velcro on the front and sides. So far, the only problem I've had with it was some frosting along the bottom edge of the long version of the shield on a 0 degree day when wearing a balaclava that directed my breath upward. The shorter version (as shown on the web site) should not suffer from this problem
From: Matt Becher
I used to play hockey and I use my old helmet/face shield occasionally
for aid climbing. For a face shield I recommend a half shield made by
ITECH. It covers your eyes and top part of your face but leaves your
mouth open to the air. This keeps your shield from fogging up and lets
you breath better. On more than one occasion a sketchy nut I was
standing on has popped and smacked my shield instead of my face.
Overall they work well, they can feel confining however. Be sure to
get a helmet that dosn't cover the ears. That helps a lot. Also
expect to get some strange looks from other climbers. One day I was
climbing and some people on the ground were snickering at the helmet.
Next thing you know a piece blew out and popped my face shiled with a
very loud pop. That shut them up.
From: Scott Anderson
For what it's worth, there is a new breed of hockey helmet making its way
into the rinks, that may interest you more than the conventional helmets.
These helmets are better at protecting against large impacts. Previously,
hockey helmet liners were basically just closed-cell foam and the like.
With the increase in head injuries in hockey, some makers have begun making
helmets with expanded polystyrene liners with a small amount of closed-cell
foam for comfort. These helmets are much more like a bicycle or motorcycle
helmet, designed to dissipate a big impact with less chance of the user
suffering a concussion. They are more expensive than the old style, $100CDN
vs. $50CDN, but perhaps worth it. A few models that have this protection
are the Bauer HH4000 and HH5000, CCM HT500 and HT200 and most Itech helmets.
Itech make a half-visor for about $45CDN and a full visor for about $55CDN.
Leader also make a nice half-visor with excellent optics, if you think that
necessary. Cages are pretty standard and cost about $35CDN.
A caveat about the visors. They are designed with hockey in mind, which
means that most of the time you have airflow around the visor, since you are
skating around a bit. This usually helps to keep the visor clear. If you
sit around on the bench a lot, they will fog up. I suppose the same goes
for climbing, if there is little wind and you're working hard, you may still
get a fog problem, even though I'm pretty sure they use some type of
laminate to prevent it as much as possible.
See also:
Can I use a [whatever] helmet as a climbing helmet? on Tradgirl
What boots should I buy? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Stu Hammett
Most boots are designed by the manufacturer for steep ice, glacier trudging or somewhere in between. You just gotta check their literature or websites.
From: Gerard
Plastic boots
Pros- virtually idiot proof, don't have to worry about getting wet feet and just have to dry out the booties, usually can do terrific edging
Cons- kind of clunky, heavy and ungainly, which MIGHT be solved by using the next smallest size
Leather
Pros- lighter and more maneuverable (depending on model), might even find a double leather combo, because they are lighter and less stiff plus shanks are usually on the light side, all that will vary edging performance
Cons- they get wet, your feet will go through hell. Usually they are cut lower around the ankle.
From: MarkW
I've used Scarpa Invernos and Salomon Super Mountain 9 Guide Thermic leather
boots.
The Scarpa's are a little wider, I had to take my leather boots and have
them stretched. They do fit perfectly now.
Plastic cons: The Scarpa's are rigid plastic and bother my shins/lower leg
when using them for French technique. The Scarpa's leak like a sieve in wet
snow, my feet were constantly wet.
Plastic pros: The inner comes out of the boot for easier drying. They are
more rigid which is better for high angle ice. The inner can (sometimes) be
used as a camp bootie.
Leather cons: The waterproofing does wear off after a few days of heavy,
wet snow use. I re coat them though and they are waterproof again. They
have a gusseted tongue so I can walk in water up to the top of the boot
without my feet getting wet. I haven't taken them out on a really cold trip
yet, but my feet have been quite warm at below freezing temperatures. I am
guessing they are just as warm as the invernos but leather boots are
typically less insulated than plastics. Not as rigid as plastics--less
support on high angle ice. Mine are full shank which makes them adequate
for high angle ice, many other leather boots are not.
Leather pros: More flexible, much more comfortable for french technique,
more comfortable for "hiking" approaches too--I don't like to carry two sets
of shoes.
From: Kai Larson
If I was going to own only one pair of boots for ice climbing, I would get either a plastic boot or an insulated leather boot. An
uninsulated single leather boot probably won't keep your feet
adequately warm in all of the conditions you are likely to encounter winter climbing in the North East. My experiences in New Hampshire and the Adirondacks have included a number of really really cold days where even a supergaiter would not have made an uninsulated leather boot warm enough.
Plastic boots to look at:
The new plastic boot by Scarpa called the Alpha looks intriguing. It is distributed in the States by Black Diamond. I haven't actually seen a pair of these boots, but they look interesting in their catalog and Web page. They might be the solution to the leather/plastic question.
The Asolo line are good boots. I have and love the old AFS
Expedition. The current model of the Expedition is the AFS 8000. These are relatively light,, with reasonably flexible ankles and (my favorite) a dual lacing system that allows you to snug down the heel and instep, but leave the ankle loose for mobility.
A number of my friends use and swear by the Lowa plastic boots. They have a reputation for being sensitive and agile. The Civetta Extreme is their current flagship model.
Leather Boots to look at:
You mentioned the Freney. I have the Freneys, and really like them. I don't think I would choose them as my only pair of ice climbing boots, however. They have a very flexible upper, which is both great and not so great. The good news is that they are very very agile and sensitive and you can really maneuver on funky ice. They work great for French (flatfoot) technique. The bad news is that the soft uppers mean that your calf muscles get tired more quickly than they do with a stiffer, more supportive boot.
With leather boots, fit is even more important than with plastic. Try on boots from several different manufacturers and find one that really fits your foot.
Check out the Scarpa Matterhorn Thermo; The Sportiva Nepal Top
Extreme; the Boreal Super Latok; and the Salomon SM9 Guide Thermic (heavily insulated) and Super Mountain 9 Snow and Ice (lightly
insulated).
Sportiva page
From: Michael Gordon
If you can get a good fit, the new breed of leather ice climbing boots
are the tits.
From: Dingus Milktoast
As for leather vs. plastic, I have both. I DO prefer leather for snow slopes and glacier type travel because they are more suited for splay footed technique. I prefer the iron-rigidness of the plastic on steep ice though. As a back country skier, I have learned that comfortable dryness of plastic exceeds the utility of wet-leather flexibility, especially when the leather freezes on the 2nd night out. Sometimes new technology is indeed better than old technology.
From: Brad
I would recommend that you not buy a pair of boots without trying them on first though. Most stores will let you take them home and wear the around the house for a week or two to see if they are going to work. All boots fit differently and with heavy weight leather boots, it is important that they fit your feet from the get go. I tried on at least 7 pairs before I bought my boots.
From: mnestor
Forget everything you've heard, and everything you've read. Try on as many pairs of boots as possible -- leather and plastic -- then buy whichever fits best.
If you can afford the bite on your credit card limit, buy the two pairs that are the "best" in the store then wear them around your house for a few days each. After spending a few hours wearing them, you'll have a much better idea of how your feet will feel in them. Then just return the pair you don't want. A reputable gear shop should have a liberal enough return policy to allow you to do this so long as you don't wear the boots outdoors or damage them.
Aside from the importance of fit, I would tend to agree that plastic boots may serve you better based on the type of climbing you do (i.e. long treks, etc.) I think leather boots serve best for steep ice as their primary use and get you through the occasional overnight/longer outing where plastics with removeable liners will help you stay dry and warm on your longer outings.
From: Gerard
Since my feet get sweaty in general; plastic boots gave me the worst stinky feet and athlete's foot (ugh!). Furthermore, the inner booties never quite dried out even inside the sleeping bag at night. When I got off the mountain I got my own leather boots which worked great on Mt. Shuksan. I should add those leather boots are leather DOUBLE boots and the liners dried ultra fast at night in my sleeping bag.
From: Mike Garrison
And oh yes, if you are also buying crampons, be sure your
crampons actually work with your boots. Don't just accept
the sales guy's word on that one, have him put the suckers
onto the boot and see that they fit correctly.
From: Kai Larson
Need plastic boots for my girlfriend. Can anyone recommend a woman's
boot, or a man's boot that women fit well?
Any plastic boot coupled with a custom (heat to fit) foam liner. Make sure you get the soft liners not the stiff ones.
From: Lola
I have Koflach boots (forget the style name), which I believe
are the only plastic boots made specifically for women. They
suit me well because they have a narrower heel and higher instep than Scarpa Vegas, which seem to be the only other boot
available in small sizes. It's really just a matter of trying to see which fits best.
If your girlfriend has larger feet then obviously there's more
choice in men's boots.
BTW. not all 'adjustable' crampons will actually adjust down to
a smaller size, so you need to be careful when buying these.
See also:
Big leather mtn boots? on Google Groups
Which crampons should I buy? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Kai Larson
The Sabretooths are a great mountaineering crampon, as they work well
across a wide spectrum of conditions. If you want one crampon that
can do a bit of everything, the Sabretooth is a good bet. For
vertical water ice, there are better options, however. (Rambo, M10,
etc.)
From: Chris Ferro
All I know is that my crampons, after carefully fitting them to the boot (before the trip) and seeing no obvious problems, popped off several times. The people at Grivel, Charlet Moser, DMM, Stubai, and pretty much every other European crampon maker put toe straps on their crampons. Even BD puts them on in Europe, because the Euros won't buy them without them. But the guys at BD here in the US think they know better. I disagree. I think the Sabretooths have a great point configuration, they're light, they shrink down nicely, they have a nice heel screw for adjustment, they do have a beefier front bail than most other crampons, and the flat construction minimizes snow-balling. Of course, all of that is moot if they fall off. But add those toe straps and they just might be a great mountaineering crampon. They won't pop off and they'll go on over overboots more securely. BD's going to send me some new Euro bails with the toe straps, so I'll give them a shot.
From: Richard
It is true that every boot and crampon combination is a little bit different so some experimentation needs to be conducted before any long trips. A friend of mine climbs in a pair of La Sportivas and he owns a pair of BD Sabretooths. He has found that after strapping the crampons on, a few taps on the front bail with his ice ax is all that is needed to secure the crampons.
From: Robert Williams
I personally have never had any problems whatsoever with my Sabretooth crampons except for snow balling under them and that was remedied with an anti-bot place. But then again, I took the boots I was going to use with the crampons into the store with me and made sure they fit. Strangely, and what I simply can't understand about your predicament, is that I have used these same crampons on my T2's, leather telemark boots, Scarpa Invernos and La Sportiva Makalus. Not once has my crampons popped. Never, nada, zip. Maybe they are not properly adjusted for your boots? Weird.
From: Booker Bense
Well, put me in the toe strap camp. I have one pair of crampons that has to go on everthing from a hiking boot to a pair of
T1's. The toe strap makes life simpler for me. I specifically
didn't buy BD because they didn't have a toe strap. Your
testing and philosophy imply that a set of crampons will only
ever be used on a single pair of boots. For ice climbing I
guess that makes sense, for general alpine use it's silly.
From: Michael Riches
I hate the fucking straps....They are a serious pain to deal with when your fingers are frozen. That was my main reason for going with the Black Diamond to begin with. They fit my boots extremely well and they lock down so solid that I have to be careful just how I position them to keep from blistering my heals with the lockdown. I know that no matter what the weather or the temperature is or how tired, hypoxic, blitzed or what ever, I can very easily get my spikes on...
From: Needlesports.com
Anyone know where I can get a crampon retainer that fits on the
toe bail of a step-in crampon?
Salewa make a Bail Bar strap kit that does this for the princely sum of
£3.90. We have them in stock if you want one just send a cheque and a a
copy of this email saying what you want. We'll stand you the postage.
Just two points when fitting them. One, there is a wrong way round - so
think before squeezing those Mole Grips! Two, the two bits of metal that
you are squeezing together tend to act as a spring and send the rivet
bits flying to the far corners of the room never to be seen again. The
rivets are special mini ones and we can't seem to get spares so be
careful!
From: Mad Dog
I have a friend that has used the 8's, Switchblades and Rambos and swears by the Rambos.
From: Tom
I have Rambos and like them, but don't have a lot to compare them to. My wife has the CM Grade 8s and they seem better on hard or brittle ice - a nice "crack" instead of a dull "thud" when they go in.
From: Jay Moldow
I have used the Rambos for about 6 years now and they have worked well in plastic and leather boots. The only problem is with snow bailing ? (sticking to the bottom). A friend of mine used the grade 8 with no problem in the same snow, think its the semi-rigid that keeps it from sticking. I probably will get the new M10 this season, dual point of coarse.
From: Abdul Raoul
I was lucky enough to get a set of Rambo monopoints for Christmas, which replaced my Footfangs. Either I became a way better ice climber over the summer or the crampons are much better. I suspect the latter.
From: Daniel Eubank
Forget cost, it's your butt hanging out on the WI, and you'll be kicking yourself every time you go out and strap on cheapos.
Go for the Charlet Moser Grade 8 Monos!
From: Lon Harter
There are no substitutes for the Charlet Moser Grade 8 Monos.... nothing thing else will give you the ultimate performance experienced with them. They are the ultimate "rock shoe" for the ice!
From: Mad Dog
I've climbed in Salewa rigids (circa '85), Foot Fangs and Charlet Moser Grade 8's all on the same boot (Asolo plastic). The Salewa's had horizontal front points but they worked well if the ice was not real brittle plus they were pretty light. The Foot Fangs were more positive but the weight was easy to feel on a long day. The Grade 8's are the best of the three, being light but positive. I've heard people that have used them and Rambos say the Rambos are better, but I've heard the converse also. Adjusting the crampon to get a good fit is key.
From: Hunter
I bought a set of the Trangos and they work great ! I am very impressed. I had a set of Footfangs for a long time and just got these. They are my first set of monos, so don't know if all monos are this good , but I doubt I'll go back to the footfangs. The Trangos adjust easily, and are pretty easy to sharpen. They also haven't come off my boots(Koflach) at all either, which the footfangs usually did at least once every 10 climbing days or so. -I lead WI 4+, and follow 5+. So far this year I have done a bunch of Grade2,3,&4 , as well as one grade 5 and the Harpoons have outperformed my Footfangs on every type of ice and steepness.
See also:
Crampon Antibott Plates on Google Groups
Which ice tools should I buy? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: arockclimber
My girlfriend owns a pair of BD Shrikes, and they climb well. The Rage has the same materials in the shaft/head as the Shrikes, just the basic shape of the Cobra. I own a pair of Cobras and I love the shape of the tool. Got some clearance for beat up climbs or going around bulges, but the bend isn't totally aggressive like the new CM Quark. The only thing I don't like about the Rage (from swinging them around the local EMS) is the fact that they're heavy. I'm not a huge guy, so I like the light weight of the Cobra. If you've climbed with CM Quasars (another heavy tool) before and liked them, you probably won't think the Rage is too heavy. Same goes if you're a big guy in the upper body.
The Shrikes have a good, precise swing, and feel more damp than other aluminium shafted tools I've climbed with. (Probably because the head is Stainless, this puts more of the tool's weight in the head, where it counts.) The heavy head also seems to make them penetrate well. Sorry I haven't climbed with the Rage myself, but maybe this information will help you.
I've used the old BP's, owned a pair of the CFBP single bend tools, and used Cobras all last season. The biggest difference I notice is the balance and precision of the tool. With more of the weight in the head of the tool, the CF stuff seems more precise (to me). It seems easier to hit the same placement twice, this may also have something to do with the grip shape of the BD's (I think it's more ergonomic than many shafts with strait or tube style grips.).
When I got the Cobras, I sold my CFBP single bends. I've been kicking myself ever since (would like to have them for alpine style stuff). But then again, I ain't the type of guy who can afford to lock up $1200 in ice tools.
The biggest difference I can see in the CFBP vs. Cobra is the clearance. I climb mostly waterfall ice, and the shape of the Cobra is much better for clearing bulges and drafting in old pick holes. The strait stuff seemed better for dry tooling (it seemed easier to pull strait down on edges). I seem to bang my pinkey fingers up much less with the Cobras (this also says something about my half-baked ice climbing skills).
From: Andy
I've used a pair of older carbon fibre tools for a few years now and abused them at every opportunity. They are still as good as new apart from a couple of nicks in the shafts so durability shouldn't enter into it. If you can get on with the lightness then go for it. I found the light weight off putting at first and wasn't sure about placements for a while but you soon get used to that.
From: zippodedoda
There is no doubt about it. The Carbon Fiber Cobra's are a fantastic ice tool. They're plenty tough and durable. Just don't step on them with your crampons. If they do break on you (highly unlikely), Black Diamond has a good return and warranty policy. If you're looking for a light weight ice tool, the new Shrikes are actually lighter than either the Cobra's or the Carbon Fiber Black Prophets (Green profits for Black Diamond). They're a lot cheaper, too.
From: Fern
So I have an opportunity perhaps to buy a pair of Grivel Light
Machines or Black Diamond carbon fiber black prophets (for cheap),
and I was wondering if any women in particular liked on versus the
other.
I have tried the following tools in descending order of preference: Grivel Rambos, CFBPs, Lucky/Metolius 007s, Grivel Light Machines, CM Pulsars, CM Quasars, DMM Predators, Trango Captain Hooks, DMM Aliens. I own and climb on the Luckys, which I bought purely because they were cheap.
The weight difference (2 oz) is not a huge concern; I was thinking
more of how easy they are to hold etc.
I don't have teeny tiny puny woman hands, but I don't have big
manly hands either.
What kind of gloves/mittens you wear makes a big difference to how easy it is to hold on, and which gloves you wear depends on how cold it is where you climb. It's pretty warm where I climb (west coast, B.C.) so I can get away with not-so thick mittens, which means I can handle tools with bigger grips even though my hands aren't very big. (I measured them, 6 1/2" from heel to tip of middle finger.) When it's colder and I have to wear thicker mitts I get a bit more pumped. Also the thing with tool weights is that the distribution of the weight is pretty
important. If your tools are really light but you have to swing them 3 or 4 times before they stick have you gained anything over slightly heavier tools that stick the first time?
I've swung the machines a bit and wasn't a humongous fan
of the way they swung (liked the Rambos much better, but alas
they won't be nearly as cheap atm) and I've swung the Cobras, but
the grips were perhaps a tad too big for comfort... I haven't
been able to actually find a pair of CFBP's to try out (another
problem, since I'm ordering by mail!) so I don't
know quite how similar they are.
in my brief experience with one CFBP it swung pretty similar to the Rambos, althought the grip was kind of a weird shape and feel. Never tried Cobras, never tried regular BPs. The machines seemed cool but I'd have to get used to them.
Of course the absolute biggest problem here is that I'm not exactly
what you'd call an experienced ice climber, having only done it once,
Whatever tools you get, you'll learn to climb on, and it's sure a lot easier to get out there when you have the gear already. I figure that it matters less what specific gear you have, and more that you have enough gear to get out there and climb as much as you want. It sucks to miss out on a trip because you can't track down someone to borrow stuff off.
Anyways, back to the original question. I guess it would partly depend on how good the deal was but if the two sets were available for an identical price, I'd go for the CFBPs.
From: Steven Miller
Both the prophets and machines are decent tools, but the machines are a bit odd and will take some getting used to. Steven noted that they clear bulges quite well and he's exactly right. The women I climbed with had a few problems with the machines though. The picks didn't seem to stick nearly as well as some other tools and one of my partners complained that they didn't last very long either. I heard some of the same complaints about the machines at the N.H. ice festival. Still a great tool for clearing bulges and hooking.
From: Gavin Hodgson
I bought a pair of Rambo IIs this summer, and game them hell for about two months in the Alps. Never had a single problem with them, and the wrist loops are superb.
That said, make sure you have the correct pick for what you're doing - there are five different picks - tubolar, evolution (standard), goulottes, cascade and mixte. If you try to use the evolution for mixed routes, yes the chances are that you'll break it - it's only a few millimetres thick at the point, and torquing it is probably a Bad Thing. But then, use your gear for things it's not designed for, and it's your fault if you break it...
I'd wholeheartedly recommend the Rambo II.
From: Joe Sierra
Like all BD products, the X15 is a fine tool. It
is their price point model, though, and is not
the best around.
From: Julian Smith
mostly, it comes down to choosing a tool and becoming comfortable with the handling characteristics of the picks.
See also:
Ice Tools Reviews on OutdoorREVIEW.com
Which screws should I get? / How do I place ice screws? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Kai Larson
I used Grivel 360s last season for the first time. (I've also got BD Express screws) The big advantage of the pivoting crank of the 360 is that you end up clearing less ice to make your placement.
A couple of chops to hack off the rotten surface ice, then just crank the screw in. When it gets close to the head, and you would normally have to start chopping at stray ice chunks to get the thing all the way in, you simply reverse the crank and keep turning it in. This works especially well when you are sinking it into a narrow divit in the ice.
I found the 360 to be significantly faster than any other screw I've used, when placing it in "featured" water ice. For alpine ice, the pivot feature doesn't make much difference.
Drawbacks of the 360: The hanger is not very well thought out in my opinion. It is difficult to clip into and a real pain to use for racking the screw. I have heard rumors that in cold, hard ice the wire crank on the 360 can bend and break. I can't confirm this, as I climbed with them only in Colorado, which suffered through a pretty warm winter last season, and cold hard ice was pretty scarce.
Bottom line is that I now carry both 360s and Express screws on my rack. I use the 360s for pockets, divits, and other placements where I might otherwise have to do a lot of clearing. I use the Express screws for everything else.
From: Michael Gordon
Also, any opinions on Smiley's Ice Screw with Knob (a good bit cheaper
than the above, but the handle doesn't fold away like the Express)?
The Smiley's is nearly the same as the BD with the exception of that which you pointed out. The teeth are nice, threads fine. They are a tiny, tiny bit heavier than the same size in a BD. The nut on the knob has a tendency to come off (they are not 'fixed' like on a BD. They can be removed), so I just superglued them in place. Otherwise, good screws for the price.
From: Eric
I recommend the Smiley's and the BD's. The Smileys seem to have a thicker diameter which came in handy last winter on some climbs where there was already a hole in the best ice. The Smileys went in with resistance while the express screws almost slid in and out.
Also, we took and painted the hangers depending on the size of the screw which worked great, and help speed up the process of looking for the right screw.
From: D-Elvis
Smiley's without question. Inexpensive, quality, and in with one hand.
From: Reardon
I dig the Omega screws (new name for Smiley's, I understand). Climbed with them for several seasons performance to any other high end pieces. Plus, their smallest screw is CE certified according to the catalog
From: Michael Sharp
I have been climbing on the Express Screws for about 2 years now. I have to say that even though they carry a heafty price tag, that they are the best ice screws that I have ever used. To avoid having to leave one behind I just carry a few of the cheep Russian Titaium screws...they can ussually be had for about $12 each through Mountain Gear.
BD's claim that the place in an almost instant are true. The only place I have ever had a problem was on a nasty mixed chimney in the San Juans, but the ice was such that it would not take anything....but of the the Beak, a pin and Express Screw, the Express Screw demonstraited that the ice was not going to take pro, so rather than wasting time trying to hand crank some piece in I was able to just finish (much to my belayers dismay).
From: Dave Virdee
I made a point of buying several different types of screw this winter. I used the new Mountain Technology ones, Black diamond, Grivel Extrabite and those camp ones.
The best ones by far were the Black Biamond - very sharp, robust, and light. The hanger was nice a chunky for screwing with a mittened hand, and a nice big eye that allowed easy racking.
The kept their sharpness well and the ice cleared with ease from the core.
The camp ones seems like a good idea with the sliding hanger, but it was a pain in the arse when trying to place.
Mountain technology ones were a little disappointing, they weren't very easy to place, but they had a narrower bore, which is a plus point on brittle ice. However they really were hard to clear the ice from - you had to put them inside your coat.
Grivel extrabite were ok - sharp and light - nice hanger which fitted well into the palm of you hand - however, the krab eye was small, making if a pain in the arse to rack.
The shittest ones by far are the camp 'vertige' screws that are about 12 quid or so. They are heavy, have a wide bore and a shit hanger so they are impossible of place with just a hand - you have to ratchet with an ice axe pick. The aren't ideal for scottish ice, but I have used them on glacier ice and are ok for this.
From: SeanM
A while back I had asked for opinions on ice screws, specifically BD Express vs. Grivel 360's. I have since purchased a few of each, and so far I have to lean towards the Grivels. I've used both in similar conditions (usually on the same pitch), and the Grivels are almost always what I reach for when the going gets gripped. I find they start *much* easier than the BD's - I think this is a result of the Grivels' symmetrical hanger. I find it easier to keep inward pressure on the Grivels while "ratcheting" my palm counter-clockwise to get another half-turn on the screw. The hanger is small and doesn't get in the way during this procedure, whereas I find the large BD hanger is more of a hassle in this respect.
Once started, both crank down much more quickly than standard, no-crank screws, but the edge usually goes to the Grivel. Being able to move the crank around on the Grivel really helps to clear ice bulges, etc. Also, removal goes much quicker with the big crank.
The one edge I'd still give to the Express is the clipping ease and confidence I have in the hanger, and the hideaway crank. I have no evidence to support this, but the Grivel hanger looks more prone to self-unclipping a biner, as does it's big crank handle.
Both are significantly more expensive than non-crank (or cheap-crank, i.e. Smiley's) screws, but the performance of the less expensive models doesn't even come close (I've tried a friend's Smiley's, and won't be spending any $$$ on them).
Bottom line - I carry a mix of each, with the longer (22 cm and 17 cm) being mostly the Grivels, and the stubbies being the BD's (shorter screws mean less turns, so the Grivel advantage isn't as significant, and the BD's are cheaper).
From: Adrian Baugh
The shorter they are the weaker, but if you're thinking about climbing on thin ice make sure the screws are less thick than the ice or they'll go all the way through and dinnerplate a big chunk off. Play about with ones with different handles in the shop; some people like the sort with lockable handles that can be twisted round once you've screwed them in but I find them harder to place than the ones with solid handles. If you're going near any mixed stuff also consider getting a few ice-hangers (I had trouble getting these recently - are they still made?) or warthogs (for turf or chalk!).
From: Chris Harmston from Black Diamond
Long screws are not necessarily stronger. Yes, they are stronger but only by about 10%. It depends largely on the angle of placement. If anyone is interested in actual test data send me your snail mail address and I will post you a report from testing I have conducted. When long screws are loaded the surface ice shatters out leaving the tube sticking out which then bends over and breaks. Shorter screws have effectively thicker wall thicknesses since the threads go all the way or nearly to the head of the screw. They tend to bend less than longer ones. Where long screws are better is when you are dealing with low quality, layered, or hollow ice.
From: Rossco
Has anyone retrofitted their screws with a new suicide knob with any
luck? This might be a way to go (?):
Ice Screw Knob Retro Kit ($5.25)
Does anyone know of a non-Omega brand that works okay with these? (BD
perhaps?)
From: Brad Cooke
A friend bought a couple of these OP screws with the knob last season...
I had the misfortune of using them a couple of times. I found that the
knob, which unlike BD, does not fold away (and because the screws are
not shaped for the knob in the first place the carabiner hole is
dramatically reduced in size) and tends to catch on things and impede
racking.
From: Michael Gordon
I've retrofitted only Smiley's with them. The curvature of the BD hanger
hole is not conducive to proper placement of the knob. If you put them on
Smiley's/Omega's, make sure you SUPER GLUE the nut onto the knob, otherwise
it'll come off.
From: Michael Riches
Sometimes...I'll try and get it started first with my glove on. If it simply won't start I'll slide the keeper strap on my left arm up to my elbow, try and hold the screw with my left hand and set the screw using my hammer tool, you can generally get an inch without hammering too hard...from here, they usually start. If you start to get the heebbie jeebbies, carry a couple of Specters...you can set a specter real easy and fast, and then just rest on it, while working on the screw...It all takes time to feel comfortable with, so don't feel bad when you rip your glove off in frustration and then do something real stupid...like drop your glove
From: Scott Grimes
The best advice that I can offer for placing a screw is first and fore most leave your gloves on and to chip out a little starter hole with your pick, third tool, just large and deep enough to let the teeth of the screw fit inside. With a couple of turns while pushing in at the same time the threads on the screw engage fairly rapidly. Also, best to place screws from your chest to waist level to preserve what blood flow you may have left in your hand.
See also:
Do ice screws melt out, or am I an idiot? on Google Groups
What about titanium ice screws? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Stephen Reid
For high altitude (the alps for instance), where weight is crucial, the titanium ones make sense but they are nowhere near as quick to place as a top quality screw like the BD ones. For hard ice-fall routes where it is essential to place the screw quickly, and preferably one-handed, it is worth paying extra for the BD Express ones with the fold-out winding in handle. Once you have used these nothing else will do.
From: Adrian Baugh
Titanium ones will go blunt more quickly but are lighter and a cool colour (please Mr. Camp, can we have some purple ones!).
From: Ken Cline
Titanium screws are plenty strong, but because titanium
doesn't polish as well as steel, they aren't likely to be as easy to
use. They are for alpine climbs where you have to minimize weight
rather than steep waterfall ice.
From: Stephen Reid
I've used BDs, Grivels and Camp Titanium.
There is no doubt that handled screws like BDs are much easier and quicker
to place on the lead but the Camp Titanium are bigger and lighter - and
cheaper! I tend to save them for belay placements where one is less in
extremis. Also the sort of thing I'd carry for a non-technical alpine
route, glacier travel etc.
From: Ilkka
I have a bunch of Ukrainian titanium screws of different sizes. All
except one go into ice really well. I haven't really been able to
figure out why it doesn't work, it just won't go in. The others are
really good. As with everything from the Ex-USSR the products tend to
vary even within a batch.
Although the titaniums are good and I use them on alpine climbs, I
think steel screws would probably be better. The difference in weight
isn't that big, but the titaniums teeth get easily bent.
I think I payed something like 3...7 usd per screw, which probably
explains why I have them instead of BD's.
From: Merijn
I own and use a few Ti screws made by Irbis The work pretty well, but the
hanger is build a bit strange. On my screws without a handle I like to use a
Turbine by CM. But it will not fit very well on the Irbis. But....cheap,
light and OK, so why not. If you go for the hard stuff where you get only
one try at getting a belay point, you might just stick with BD's
From: Brian in SLC
I have a few USHBA ti screws. I think the ALVO? Anyhoo...they made a
smaller model which fit inside a larger diameter model which was nice
for nesting and carrying. The larger model had a hanger which could
be positioned to "ratchet" the screw in as well as slide down the
shaft in tie off mode.
When lookin' at "off brands" of Ti screws, I look for a 4 tooth design
instead of the 3 tooth. Seem to start much easier. At three bucks,
nice for bailing on.
None I've seen work as well as BD's. So I'd say, for insurance and
maybe use, go Ti. Anything else, go BD or BD-esque...
From: Maclcolm Daly
Watch out for Ti screws and don't even think that you'll find
something that works as well as the BD or Grivel screws. Ushba makes
the best of the TI screws. They're the only ones who have taken the
time to develop, analyse and QC to the point where they all work
pretty well. Watch out for the Big-Euro-Brand titanium screws. They
all have them just so they can put their name on them and they all
suck.
And don't forget...the only thing you can know for sure about titanium
is that it's heavier than aluminum and not as strong as good steel.
From: Greg Hill
The other thing to watch out for with Ti screws is notching. If the
shaft near the hanger becomes gouged or deeply scratched the screw
will tend to fold or flatten at that point when loaded. They don't
seem to come apart, just distort. I had this happen to an Irbis screw
and have since relegated them to leave-behinds.
See also:
Titanium ice screws? on Google Groups
What gloves should I wear while ice climbing? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Scott Grimes
If you can't afford GTX then invest in the off brand pile gloves or wool gloves. Carry multiple pairs. One that will get wet and one pair that will stay "dry" for belaying and standing around. If you can afford it there are some "relatively" affordable shells mfg. by OR.
From: Gerard
I use two identical trigger finger mitts and rotate 3 fleece medium weight liners. To keep the liners and gloves in the "somewhat" dry stage, stash the ones you are not using as close to the torso as possible, shoving them into your jacket is more preferable so you won't have to deal with unzipping, undoing velcro and reclosure all while dangling on your tools and crampons.
From: Ilpo Erinko
Gloves are the most important, because you will be bangin your knuckles all the time, and your fingers WILL get wet, cold and numb (if you don't have super expensive GTX gloves or something like those). I started with leather woodcutter -gloves, and I can't praise them much :) I have also tried some car-mechanics oil-proof mittens, and they are good as second pair. They won't keep much of the water out, but they are warm and comfy when leaving the crag and your super expensive GTX gloves
are all soaked :) So invest in good gloves.
From: Stephen Reid
The best method I have found is to walk in wearing windproof fleece gloves (I use Marmot ones but they could be Terra Nova, North Face etc). For the ice climb ditch these in your sack (as they will be sweaty and damp) and put on a pair of Terra Nova Guide Gloves. These are
non-waterproof leather-palmed so for major long wet routes I have an old pair as back up. The advantage of these gloves is that they are thin enough that you don't need to take them off to place gear so your fingers don't get cold and they don't fill up with snow. At the same time they are much warmer than standard windproof gloves. At the top or at any time you need warming up put on a pair of Buffalo Mitts. These are brilliant spare mitts. The whole lot is not cheap but it works (for me) on long Scottish ice routes and it is fairly light to carry. It might work for you too.
From: Kai Larson
I'm currently using a pair of Black Diamond Ice Gloves in conjunction with a pair of Patagonia bunting gloves.
This combination works well. I replaced the stock liner with the bunting gloves because the stock liner had the tendency to invert when I pulled my hand out of the glove, making re-insertion of fingers difficult. With the bunting glove, the bunting glove just slides out of the shell, and stays on my hand. It provides decent warmth and dexterity for situations (placing rock protection, etc.) when the full shell glove combination is too much.
I haven't noticed any reduction in warmth of the bunting glove/shell combination when compared to the stock liner/shell combination.
See also:
BD Dry Tool Gloves on Google Groups
Most of the information in this FAQ was originally posted on rec.climbing. If you would prefer to have something attributed to you removed from this FAQ, please contact us.
Rock Climber Meets First Ice by Michael (9/00) on Google Groups
Ice World : Techniques and Experiences of Modern Ice Climbing by Jeff Lowe
Climbing Ice by Yvon Chouinard
How to Ice Climb by Craig Luebben
The Essential Outdoor Gear Manual: Equipment Care, Repair, and Selection by Annie and Dave Getchell
British Columbia - Climbers Access Society of B.C
California - Mark Amos Clifford's California Ice
California - The Mountain Guide
Colorado - ClimbingBoulder
Illinois (Starved Rock) - Gear Express
Midwest US - Climbing Central
New Hampshire - Chauvin Guides
Northeast US - NEice.com
Southeast US - Flatliners
United Kingdom - UKClimbing.com Winter Climbing Forum
Scarpa UK page
Salomon page
Boreal page
Recommend Alpine climbing boots? on Google Groups
Mountaineering Boots Reviews on OutdoorREVIEW.com
Crampon for alpine climbing - suggestions? on Google Groups
Crampons Reviews on OutdoorREVIEW.com
What size shaft should I get for my ice axe? on Tradgirl
Package of three.
For best results, install on Omega screws only.
May not work on other brands.
Anybody still use Snargs? on Google Groups
Proceeds from Tradgirl.com benefit The American Safe Climbing Association