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Climbing FAQ
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| Safety (Page 1 2 3 4) | |
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IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER:
Trusting your life to something you read on the
internet is just plain stupid. Get corroboration from a more reliable
source, use your common sense, don't get yourself killed, and don't come
crying to us if you do.
When should I retire my rope?
Is it safe to use dropped gear? / Is it safe to buy used gear? Should I wear a helmet? / Why don't people wear helmets? Can I use a [whatever] helmet as a climbing helmet? What should I use to backup my rappel? I dropped my belay device. How do I belay and rappel without one? Should I tie stopper knots in the ends of my rap ropes? If so, how? Should I tie in with a bowline or a retraced Figure 8? / Is it safe to tie in with a bowline? How do I clip a bolt to minimize the possibility of self-unclipping? How do I belay safely with a Gri-Gri? / How can a Gri-Gri fail? What should I do if my tri-cams need new slings? Should I belay off my belay loop or should I use the waist and leg loops? Should I anchor in when belaying a leader? What knot should I use to tie webbing? / What are the safety concerns when using water knots? Is it safe to use a girth hitch (aka lark's foot) and what are my other options? Will using a magic marker to mark my rope weaken it? Should I use a sliding x knot to equalize two pieces? When should I retire my rope? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Tony Rooney
These are not my findings and therefore I cannot answer any Q's on them. But interesting they most definitely are.
In a report on dynamic climbing ropes Pitt Schubert, President of the UIAA safety commission found the following....
1. Ropes cannot break in the tie in knot, or at the running
belay.
2. Use of twin ropes has cut down on breakage's.
3. There have been no known rope failures in sport climbing
4. Petrol, Diesel, WD40, Coke and sea water do not damage
ropes.
5. Autan (insect repellent), although damaging to plastic, was
not found to damage ropes...in fact strength was slightly increased.
6. UV radiation does not damage ropes. Nylon is UV stabilised
and only the colour will be lost.
7. Standing on a rope loaded over a right-angled metal edge
with three times body weight did not reduce a ropes strength.
8. Standing on a rope in the snow with crampons did no damage.
Neither did standing on it on rock with a 75kg body weight. In a further
test crampon points were forced right through the rope with no strength
reduction/damage occurring!
9. The suggested life span of 10 years which has been given
for ropes is to help the user determine life span . However, after contact
with ICI it was found that although after 10 years there was a measurable
degradation in nylon (not just in ropes, but all nylon textiles) ageing
itself would not cause a rope to break, unless it was loaded over a sharp edge.
10. Top roping damaged ropes, but the damage was visible and
could be felt. The same applied to damage from stonefall.
However, lest we become complacent...
1. Any rope can break when loaded over a sharp edge. It is not
possible to produce a rope that is strong enough not to break when loaded
over a sharp edge, however, the maximum chance for survival is with a new
rope.
2. Car battery acid damages ropes and cannot be visibly
detected.
3. Ropes soaked overnight in urine (!) had their strength
reduced by 30%. However, this was only relevant when the rope was loadedover a sharp edge.
4. The strength of frozen and wet ropes was reduced but again,
unless the rope is loaded over a sharp edge, it would not matter.
From: Micah Lauer
The *standard* that many rope companies go by is as follows:
retire after:
-6 months to 1 year - if used heavily, i.e. - guiding or lead climbing almost daily
-up to 2 years - if used on a semi-regular basis, i.e. every weekend or
every other weekend
-up to 4 years - if used only occasionally, i.e. - every few months/several times a year, etc.
Of course, after any *major* fall, a rope becomes suspect and should be
retired, especially if over a sharp edge.
You should regularly examine your rope for irregularities, sheath damage, core damage and soft spots.
Store your rope in a cool, dry place - away from gas fumes, chemicals,
battery acid, weapon grade plutonium, etc...
The rationale behind the length of life scale is that nylon does break down and deteriorate over time (and gear companies want to sell more ropes, of course). Some people get away with using ropes for longer, some for less. What appears above is just a general guideline.
Use your best judgement and, if in doubt, retire your rope! Better to shell out $150 than risk your life and your partners'.
From: Chris Harmston
Here is some test data from an investigation I conducted last summer.
Ropes were provided by a customer who was asking similar questions as you
all are.
All ropes were used slightly. I conducted a pull test on a loop of rope with an overhand followthrough knot (used this knot to minimize knot
tightening and test machine travel). I did not conduct drop tests because
we do not have this capability at this time.
1) 1986 Chouinard 8.8 mm. 3240 lbf @ knot. (this is a half rope)
Conclusions. Don't know how strong these ropes were when new. Single
strand strength of these ropes is conservatively half the loop strength
(big assumption on my part). I would say this is pretty good overall. I
do not know what the dynamic properties of these ropes were nor do I know
how time affects the dynamic properties. My recommendation to the
customer was to not take any chances with the ropes in lead climbing. I
would use them for top roping without any reservations.
Data from a test I conducted on 12/22/98 (research into Dan Osman's failed rope--to be published later so don't ask questions about this right now please). Loop, knot was a quad followthrough figure 8 (I have a new
machine now and can test with longer travel).
All ropes are BD ropes. New condition 1997 ropes.
1) 11 mm. 6643 lbf @ knot.
Conclusions: very strong.
My Conclusions and Recommendations. Rope strength does not appear to
decrease with time. I don't trust old ropes because I do not know how the
elastic properties change with time. This needs further research. .
From: cxjakavani
Nylon does not degrade very much when kept away from light, damaging
agents, and not used (as in a rope). If it did, you would have
mandatory replacements of your seatbelts in your car. Think of all the
light exposure that they get. Manufacturers have two good reasons for
their replacement suggestions:
1) ass covering
2) profits
In agreement, mostly. Nylon 6,6 is extremely stable and does not
deteriorate with time. UV light and acids are its biggest enemy
(including piss). Some say ozone also hastens some decay.
Chris Harmston and others have tested old ropes and tey have shown
that they retain very much of their tensile strength over time. But,
most also agree that ropes tend to lose elasticity over time (some
think because of oxidation and evaporation of certain plasticizers).
SO, the ropes become less dynamic over time in theory, and
thoeretically exert greater forces on the climber, though they don't
break. Me, Ive climbed and taken a big zipper on a 15 year old
edelweiss 11mm that had seen a fair amount of use oer that time, and
it held just as fine and soft as any new 11 I've fallen on.
THe need to replace slings is even less true, as you do not rely on
their dynamic ability.
Best advice is inspect everything carefully. Look for wear, busted
stitching, cuts, abrasions, fading, stiffness, flat spots, core shots,
etc. That stuff is a much surer indication than time as to whether
you need to replace something.
From: Krich
Of course, a visual examination will not show
flat spots--slowly pull the entire length of the
rope through your fingers to feel for flat
spots and abrasions. This is much better than
just a visual inspection, but I'm sure we all
knew that!
From: stevidx
When you start to feel uncomfratable about leading on it its time to get
rid of it. I try to buy a new rope every year. And I'm a total cheapskate.
From: Brian Nystrom
For top roping, use it until the sheath is shot, then trash it.
See also:
Ad hoc fall test of climbing rope
Is it safe to use dropped gear / Is it safe to buy used gear? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Rex Pieper
Used gear can save you lots of cash. You just
need to look it over with an eye that knows what to look for.
I wouldn't trust used ropes, harnesses or slings due to the fact that they
are susceptible to such nasty things as battery acid fumes which
radically reduces their strength with no visible clues, or just plain
old age, (although I'd probably buy static lines for hauling), but
hardware is easy to check.
Cams, stoppers and biners can last a lifetime and then some. I have metal
gear on my rack that's over 25 years old and it's fine.
As long as cables aren't frayed or rusted the stopper/hex is gonna be
bomber no matter how banged up the actual wedge of metal is.
As long as the cams move well, don't show any major deformation and
any rigid stem isn't bent, the Friend, Camalot or TCU is good. Replace
any slings, but if the cam *looks* good, it likely is. Even cams
that have seen a lot of mileage can be just as strong as brand new.
Biners too. Examine for tiny stress fractures around the pins in the
gate, but these are very rare. Don't mistake a crack for just a surface
scratch from use. Gouges from bolt hangers are fine, but probably best
used for the same purpose rather than putting those biners on the rope
end of your quickdraw.
Pitons... these as long as they aren't rusted out can be serviceable
nearly forever. Make sure the eyes aren't cracked or broken, but other-
wise they're good.
There isn't any such thing as hidden stress fractures, unseen wear or
damage done to metal gear from being dropped (even off of El Cap).
The number of falls on a piece of gear has little bearing on it's strength.
Don't believe me, believe the tests that Chris Harmston at Black
Diamond has done. Clyde Soles at Rock and Ice has also posted on this.
Check Google Groups. You'll see I'm right. (And if I'm not, they read this NG
too so I'll be corrected forthwith!).
But BOTTOM LINE: If you don't TRUST anything that you haven't bought new
yourself, then don't use anything that you haven't bought new yourself.
Problem solved. (Just try and forget about the history of those bolts you
are clipping. You don't know who placed those or if they are put in right
do ya?) ---This is far more dangerous and common than you probably
want to know.
From: Seann Woolery
I too have been getting stuff from Ebay with good luck. Thus far I have
gotten a couple near new pairs of shoes for 1/3 cost of new, several new cams
averaging 40-75% of retail, and some gibb's still with stickers.
With that said it does concern me that newbies looking to save a buck will get
into trouble. Specifically dudes selling used ropes and other nylon gear.
IMHO all used rope, webbing, harnesses and such should not be passed on.
Dudes other than the buyer them will be putting their life on the line. The
complete history of the rope and harness should always be known.
From: Chris Harmston
Finding gear can be
a risky thing. My general rule is that if there is obvious visual damage
(i.e. deep scratches or cracks) then the unit should be discarded. If
there is no obvious visual damage then I would use the unit. I would most
likely have used the unit that Ian had found if I had been the one to find
it as well. The scratches would not have been that easy to see without
close inspection by retracting the cams fully. The same issues apply to
gear you already own and know the history of. This is why you must
regularly inspect your equipment and retire it if there are any obvious
problems. In the case of the original thread on this topic, seeing a cam
with bent cross bars warrants retirement because you never know what could
happen. Chances are good that it could be usable again. But this is a
big if and one which I can't recommend to anyone.
From: Paul McKenzie
i'm not a pro or anything, but i've dropped my shit all over north
america and have not had a problem. most gear is designed to be rugged.
if you replaced gear every time you dropped a piece, who could afford to
climb?
From: Bob Wightman
A friend who once owned a climbing shop had a board with the results of
dropping various Krabs onto different surfaces. These were then strength
tested. I seem to recall that none of the Aluminium based models broke
below their stated breaking strain. One of the steel models did fail, it
had been dropped onto a concrete slab from 100 feet.
If the Krab works and the gate doesn't stick then I would carry on using
it. I would be more worried about the effect of sea spray on Krabs as
I've seen some particularly bad corrosion from just a single trip to the
seaside.
From: Steve Rollins
What? Are you crazy? Impacts like this can cause micro cracks in the
'biner which may not be visible to the eye and may not fail under a
moderate load, but which may cause the 'biner to fail if shock loaded.
Do you really need to question whether your life is worth a $6.00
'biner? If you do, you need to seek professional psycological help and
stop climbing.
Otherwise, retire the biner, use it as a paper weight or something, and
buy a new one. They're only a few bucks!!!
From: Jratus
As far as "micro cracking" and "hidden flaws in dropped gear", as far as I
know its a myth. Official company line is "use your own judgement", and I
can't really tell you that the biner you dropped off ElCap is fine. But I can
tell you that those ones Todd and Paul dropped off the Salathe broke at full
strength. We generally use ductile materials that don't "micro-crack", rather
than high tech ceramics that might have this problem.
From: Ted Compton
If you are ever in a position where your "life depends" on one biner
(droped or not) then you need to seek professional (climbing instruction)
help and stop climbing.
If the biner looks "good" use it.
From: Chris Fryer
Dont buy a second hand rope! Even if it feels and looks ok, somthing can
have been spilt on it (oil or solvent) which will weaken the rope and remain
undetected until the rope is loaded.
Why would someone sell a rope in good condition? In my opinion even if it
looks ok see above, alternatively it may have been nicked, as someone else
said. If you buy it you are supporting the criminals and encouraging them.
From: Dingus Milktoast
But one rule of thumb I have consistently stuck with is...
used software is not worth the bargain. Slings are cheap.
You can buy 10 of em for 50 bucks. Is your life worth 50
dollars in savings? Can you rely on a visual inspection of a
sling to verify it's full strength? Is chain of custody more
important for equipment that can dissolve if the right fumes
in a garage hit it for long enough?
I *might* even buy a used rope... might. But slings? Nope.
From: Nathan Sweet
My personal rule for used gear, new gear, found swag, homemade stuff etc.
is:
If I am spending mental energy wondering if some peice of gear is going to
fail
in some way it is not worth using.
Should I wear a helmet? / Why don't people wear helmets? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
Note: these answers were primarily taken from uk.rec.climbing
From: Mike
Why do so many climbers not wear helmets? A few weeks back, my partner had
three falls whilst descending a fairly treacherous Alpine route, each time
without a helmet, and each time giving her head a serious bash. The whole
time, her helmet was in her rucksack....
I migrated from caving to climbing, so wearing a helmet is second nature to
me and I feel naked without it. I figure I might as well not use a rope,
harness or protection if I'm not going to bother with a helmet.
From: Simon Harpham
Why do so many climbers not wear helmets?
Firstly a misplaced desire to look cool ( influenced in part by the
climbing press and in part by peer pressure ). Unfortunately most
people fail to notice that walking around wearing with a sturdy fabric
belt carrying half a kilo of ironmongery isn't cool. And neither is
having heroically smelly feet.
Secondly the thought ( like getting caught speeding ) that "it won't
happen to me" ( whatever 'it' is ). Well it might not, but then again
it might. And it nearly did the other day when a largish rock fell off
the top of Stoney and missed my poor unprotected bonce by about 3
feet. And again a couple of weekends ago when my tiny little brain
nearly got splattered across Black Rocks by some incredibly idiotic
young children who were throwing stones off the top "for a laugh" ( har
har bloody har ).
Also it can get in the way for some maneouvres ( but then so can
gear ), be uncomfortable ( but then so can climbing boots ) and it's
difficult to get into the habit of wearing it ( so, er, like everything
else about climbing comes completely naturally )
I've got to the point now where I don't think I can afford not to wear
a helmet. You just never know. And as if to emphasise my thoughts a
mate of mine took a 4 metre fall off a VS on Stanage the other weekend
and ended up upside down after cracking his helmeted head on the rock.
The resulting injuries were a slightly bruised back and dented self-
confidence. Could have been a lot worse!
From: Tim Wallace
my attitide to the brain bucket varies; if im toproping where there is not
loose shit, then i usually woudnt. if im climbing with beginners, i usually
do, if im leading anything hard then i usually do. If im climbing in
somewhere remote (especially after taking a 6m factor 2 fall 200m up a
remote mountain cliff in tasmania (2 days walk out)) I hit my head in that
fall but luckily had a helmet on. Sometimes it is anoying cause you bump it
on everything (ive got one of those Edelrid ones that stick up like a large
phalice. Anyays, on measure, its probably better to wear one, and there are
some nice ones around these days (even since i started a couple of years
ago the range has increased)
From: Simon Caldwell
I fell down a slab. I stopped
falling when my head and shoulder jammed in a wide crack near the
bottom. My head took most of the force.
All this talk about wearing a helmet only when there's loose rock
about, and not hitting your head when falling off vertical stuff, etc
etc, is all nonsense. It only takes one foot to touch the rock, and
suddenly you're upside down. It only needs one projecting piece of
rock in the same fall line as your head, and you've got a hole in it.
By all means take risks, and take unnecessary ones as well if you
want, but don't pretend that the risks aren't there. I thought I was
safe because the rock was vertical, they landing was on a nice sandy
beach, and there weren't any nasty boulders about. So I left my
helmet in the car. I was wrong.
From: Nick
I originally bought a helmet for climbing in places where the
rock is loose or there is loose stuff at the top (eg, Millstone, Wildcat)
but in the end I never actually wore one! ('felt funny', 'looked stupid', etc)
Then just recently I've been climbing with a friend who is learning to lead
and several times now she has dropped gear (No.11 hex!) by mistake and
narrowly missed my head. After a few weeks I realised how stupid it was
wearing a helmet I'd paid good money for some of the time, and not others, so
I wear one all the time now - even whilst soloing easy stuff on solid
grit. If you wear it all the time it ceases to 'feel funny', although you
can still argue about whether you look stupid or not!
From: Steve Pardoe
If a belayer's hit by falling rock or gear, it
may help the leader if the belayer is (also) wearing a helmet! I choose to
wear a helmet, but I can't always persuade my partners to do so.
From: Alison Rhodes
I wear them as little as possible. I don't care what they look like, but they
feel terrible.I have a small head so all the ones I've tried waggle about, even
though I tighten the straps so much that I'm half strangled.
Also the weight, on long routes I get neck strain.
Overall, it makes climbing too much of a crap experience.
From: Bob Wightman
Lifestyle choice I'm afraid therefore not subject to any known logical
rules in the known universe.
This was aired to death (sorry) here a month or two back. My personal
rule/guidelines for wearing a helmet are:
Bouldering: you must be kidding!!!!
As I climb mainly in the mid to high grades (assume HVS and above) these
routes are, in general, steeper. Therefore to strike your head against
the rock can only be caused by stepping through the rope which then
causes you to be flipped upside down.
That said I have a friend who climbs bolted limestone E6 and insists on
wearing a helmet.
Like I said it's a personal choice.
From: Peter Clinch
You're out there to enjoy yourself, and everyone has their
risk lines in different places. If you say you're daft not to wear a
helmet because it makes you safer, well, you're daft to do VS rather
than VD using exactly the same line of thought. I wear a helmet almost
anytime I climb now, but one of the most attractive things about the
sport for me is drawing lines where *you* want to concerning your own
safety, degree of adventure, etc., so for "why don't more climbers wear
helmets?", I see "becasue they don't want to" as a perfectly acceptable
answer.
See also:
Climbing Helmets, a comparison by Don Rolph
Can I use a [whatever] helmet as a climbing helmet? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Brian Nystrom
The main reason not to use a cycling helmet is that they often have too many
openings that can allow falling rocks, icicles, gear, etc. to get to your head.
They're designed to protect against falls on hard surfaces, not to protect
against falling objects.
From: David U
Climbing helmets are not just for climbing falls but rock
falls also.
Bike helmets are not hard shell and do not protect against
falling objects. A sharp rock could actually penetrate a
bike helmet.
Also if you did take a fall with a bike helmet, one or two
bounces and the helmet is crushed as it is designed to do.
Then, another bounce and you might as well not have the
helmet any more.
From: kiwi
Heh. I don't even trust my bike helmet to protect me
while cycling. The test for a bike helmet is to put a
5 Kg, head shaped weight in the helmet and drop it from
2 meters, measuring the decelleration. If the decel is
less than 300 g's you pass. Unfortunately, brain damage
can occur at decellerations much less than 300 g's. This
test simulates sitting on your bike going ZERO miles an
hour and tipping over.
From: Clyde Soles
Good hard shell = less protection for a long time
For bike helmet info:
More specifically:
The Effectiveness of Bicycle Helmets:A Review
Climb helmet standards -
ANSI Z89.1 (hardhat standard, applies to many climb helmets)
More climb helmet stuff:
Climbing Helmets by W. D. Rolph III
From: Hank Moon
REI has a PMI helemt "Composite shell helmet meets ANSI Z89.1standards for safety " Is that standard sufficient for climbing?
Not according to the CEN or UIAA. For example, the EN standard for climbing
helmets (EN 12492) contains impact tests that are substantially more severe
(in terms of energy developed by the impactor) than those found in the ANSI
Z89.1 standard, which is an industrial head protection standard. In
addition, the ANSI force transmission tests are only done along the central
vertical axis of the headform, whereas the EN standard calls for off-center
impacts. There are several other areas of difference (penetration test,
chinstrap slippage, etc.) and in general the EN standard is more stringent
than the ANSI. Bear in mind the ANSI standard was developed primarily to
protect a worker's head against a screwdriver or other light tool falling
from directly overhead; it does not even specify a chinstap for type I
helmets (i.e hardhats). Climbing helmets are designed to protect against
falling objects impacting front, back, center, and to stay on your head
during a fall.
As the EN 12492 standard was written specifically for climbing helmets, it
would be wise to look for the CE (or UIAA) mark when shopping for one.
For more info, check
laws of the Member States relating to personal protective equipment
The European Committee for Standardization
From: Corey Fong
Ski helmets are designed for multiple impacts. They are substantial, but have
not been proven in the field(of climbing). Also, they are not very adjustable
if you want to slide a balacalva on the under.
From: Stylianos Perissakis
You need to have your ears clear, so you can hear your
partner yelling taaaaake!!! I found this out the hard
way when I tried to climb with a skydiving helmet (same
idea as the kayaking helmet, I guess). No, I didn't drop
anybody :^) but I ended up climbing mostly helmetless because
communication was next to impossible.
From: Eric Brown
To simply answer you question, helmets are different for different sports, because different sports result in different impacts. If you use a helmet for an activity it isn't designed for you run the risk of having inadequit protection or even risk worse injury than not having a helmet on.
why styrofoam is used in bike helmets, but just webbing in many
climbing helmets.
There are actually three main kinds of construction: Styrofoam, webbing and foam.
Styrofoam which is very light weight, can easily be manufactured in complex shapes (like the guided air vents in cycle helmets and is able to rapidly absorb large amounts of energy from blunt impacts by cracking in half. The down sides on these helmets are that they are only good for one impact (so the first time you hit your head or even just drop your helmet on the ground, wether yo ucan find a crack or not, you need to buy a new one) and they offer only limited protection to being impaled by a sharp object (like a head plant onto jagged rock). Also these helmets are designed for where the impact will be. Bike helmets focus on front and back impacts (and all of the vents on top means a small falling rock has a good chance of still beaning you), while styrofoam climbing helmets (like Petzl's) offer great protection against falling rock but limited protection for the imapct associated with cycling or inline skating. These are the best climbing helmets if your concern is hitting your head during a large lead fall.
The webbing design comes out of contruction hard hats. The idea is that the hard outer shell will prevent a falling object from penetrating and them the force is distributed over you entire head with the webbing. Generally these helmets are heavy, clumsy, and have poor ventelation. On the plus side they can take a lot of abuse, including several impacts and are the best climbing helmet if you are concerned about falling rocks or gear hitting you on the head. This style of helmet will offer little protection for biking and if you land the wrong way could break your neck.
Finally the foam helmets are those used most often by skateboardes, agressive inline skaters and kayakers. They have a thick sturdy outer shell (similar to the webbing helmets) with a squeezable foam lining (generally of two or more different densities). Again the outer shell protects your head from any potential penetrating objects and the foam serves to distribute the force. They won't do you a lot of good if you are thrown off you bike while going down a hill at 20 mph and land on your head, but the are great if you fall off a railing and smack your head on the ground or roll your kayake and hit your head on a rock under the water.
why skaters/kayakers have very full coverage, climbers less so, and
bikers the least coverage.
Skaters and kayakers are likely to hit their head at any angle, most rock climbers are worried about stuff falling from above, most bikers want a lot of ventelation, light weight and are worried about getting thrown off their bike.
From: Mike Garrison
There are no helmets designed for both biking and climbing.
The helmets have to meet different requirements for each
sport.
My climbing helmet would be extremely uncomfortable for bike
riding, and my bike helmets would be useless for protecting
me from rockfall during climbing.
Just bite the bullet and accept that the helmets are
designed for different things.
From: Tim Howe
IMHO, helmets are not the piece of gear to skimp on. Buy a cheaper (but
still safe) harness or shoes. Or get a less expensive climbing helmet but
don't make do with something that was not intended for that purpose. $30
is not worth a skull fracture.
See also:
The Effectiveness of Bicycle Helmets:A Review from the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute
What should I use to backup my rappel? [back to top] [FAQ contents]
The following discussion centers on whether the knot used as a rap backup should be placed above or below the belay device. The word "prussic" or "prusik" is often used indiscriminately to refer to any friction knot.
Some people incorrectly refer to the practice of placing the backup knot below the device as an "autoblock". An autoblock is a specific friction knot, not a rap backup technique. Any friction knot will work either above or below the device although each knot has its advantages and disadvantages and not all knots can be made with all materials.
From: Tom Moyer
For those who don't know, if you want a rap backup, the best place for it is
*below* the rap device. If you squeeze, you stop. If you let go, you stop. If the
end of the rope goes through your hand, you fall. If that's a risk, tie a knot in
the end of the rope. Big deal.
From: Karl Lew
Basically there are three choices:
1) no backup, 2) above, 3) below. Each of those choices
is valid for different situations. It's more important
to understand the tradeoffs than just adopting a single
strategy. Some more thoughts on this are
at: www.climerware.com/rap1.shtml
From: Paul C. Hartmann
As Karl mentioned, it depends on the situation. The main difference is
that below the rappel device, the prussic acts to pull the rope in a
downward direction thereby acting as your break hand. The rappel device is
still what is holding you, it just allows you to free your hands to clean
gear or untangle the rope. In this situation the prussic doesn't get very
tight on the rope and is easy to release. I don't really think of this as a
back up to the rappel device because I don't think I would want to hang by a
leg loop if the rappel device were to fail. On long multi-pitch rappels in
which the rappel device can get very hot and conceivably fail, I back up the
rappel device with the prussic above so that its tied to a weight bearing
part of my harness.
From: Eric J. Tonnis
I generally prefer the Prusik (or equivalent) placed above the rap
device, but it is important to make sure that it is short enough to
reach should it become loaded. You don't want to compound an already bad
situation if you lose your belay grip by finding yourself hanging by a
Prusik too high on the rope to disengage. Placing the Prusik below the
device generally avoids this problem altogether, however you want to
make sure it is short-enough not to get tangled in your rap device.
From: Chris Wyckham
If the prussik is placed below the rappel device, most problems disapear.
It only takes a couple of pounds of pressure to stop your slide as the
prussik is replacing your brake hand. It is therefore very easy to start
your descent again. You'll never need to cut it, and you don't need to
stand in a second prussik to release it (btw, you don't need a second
prussik, just loop the rope around your foot a couple of times and stand in
it).
This method is often called the 'third hand' because you can easily stop in
mid-rappel and untangle your ropes from the only tree on the bloody cliff
and then continue. It is more secure than a leg wrap when you're untangling
rope as the leg wrap is only effective if the weight of the rope is giving
the friction on the thigh. You don't have said wieght if the rope is
tangled.
Note that the prussik must be rigged short so that it won't interfere with
the rappel device. This would result in a failure of the system as the
device would push the prussik along in the same way your hand was. The
rappel device can be extended away from your body on a sling (but keep it in
reach), or the prussik can be attached to a small loop on the back of a leg
loop.
From: Dave Fasulo
A backup knot below the belay device is definitely the way to go.
However, a Prusik is not the best knot. To backup the rappel device,
use a Bachman knot. Use a loop of accessory cord, tied with a double
fisherman knot. Girth hitch the cord to your leg loop. Next, wrap the
cord up the rope. When snug, clip the rope to your leg loop with a
carabiner. To really appreciate this system, you need to extend your
rappel device - using two shoulder length slings works well. With the
rappel device extended away from your harness about a foot, both hands
can be used as brake hands - this makes rappelling much easier. If you
need to let go, the knot takes the load of the brake hand - not the
entire load like the knot placed above the rappel device.
From: David Henderson
In the 'above-the-device' setup, both of your hands are
occupied, each with a separate task. One is holding the rope in braking
position, the other is sliding the prusik knot down. So when we talk
about losing control, we mean the rope hand loses control of the rope,
at which point the prusik knot is supposed to take over. But if, as you
point out, that hand grabs the knot involuntarily, it may well not do
its job.
In the 'below-the-device' setup, only only hand is occupied. It's
holding the rope in braking position; simultaneously it's nudging down
the prusik knot, which is *below* the hand. So if you lose control, i.e.
let go of the rope, the prusik knot must take over because your hand is
nowhere near it to grab at it.
Additional advantage: your other hand is free to deal with any obstacles
on the rock face as you rappel.
From: Steven Cherry
Lastly, when putting yourself on rappel, if you put the prussik on the
rope and attach it to your harness before you put the rope through the
rappel device, the prussik holds the rope for you in the way that your
partner might, and you don't need to step on the rope. In the Gunks,where
ledges are very dirty and sandy, it's nice to not have to step on the
rope.
From: Kevin Pogue
I've never liked prussiks as back-ups for rappels. They tend to grab when
you don't want them to and the friction of nylon rubbing on nylon is bad
for your rope. I often use a petzl shunt clipped to my harness loop (below
my rappel device). The rope runs smoothly through the shunt (no teeth)
when you squeeze it and locks up immediatly when you let go. This is by
far the best rappel back-up system I've ever tried. Of course it means you
have to carry another piece of gear, but it's small and lightweight.
From: Ted Compton
I don't think any rap back-up decreases your chances of raping
off the end of your rope.(other than knots in the end).
See also:
Prusik Rappel "Safety" on the Climbing Archive
I dropped my belay device. How do I belay and rappel without one? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Lawrence DeSaules
For belaying (w/o belay device) I would use a Munter.
For rappelling, use 'carabiner brake'.
Rapping with a biner brake
Start here: Carabiner Brake from Vertical Devices
From: John Byrnes
I've rapped 1000' on a biner brake in the dark and cold, by
headlamp, at 11pm after climbing 20 pitches since 5:30 that morning
and not getting any sleep the previous night either. I'm still here
(unfortunately for you).
I've also seen climbers drop their ATC's for no apparent reason
in mid-day and clear warm weather. Then I have to set up a biner
brake for them since they don't know how.
From: Ilana Stern
Do biner brake rapels work on anything
other than ovals?
Depends on your definition of "work", I think. You need to have the
sides lined up with the gates opposed, and if you don't have ovals,
they won't line up. Also, those funky light biners with non-rounded
profiles would be harder to run the ropes over, and I imagine the more
metal you have, the better the brake will be at dissipating heat.
I always carry (at least) four ovals. A carabiner brake is my rap
device of choice, so if I plan to rap I always have them available;
if not, I use my chalk bag biner, my sticht plate biner, the cleaning
tool biner, and an free biner.
From: Peter Hurd
Er, why would one choose a carabiner brake as a preferred rap. device?
I've used it because:
1) loaned rap device to partner who couldn't fit a doubled fuzzy 11mm
through her rap device.
2) loaned rap device to partner who left his at the bottom of the route
(followed by partner dropping my rap device to bottom of route and
instant retiring of rap device)
3) used three break biners to provide more friction than rap device
provided to provide more confidence when expecting to have a hard
time cleaning on rapel.
From: John Byrnes
If your biner rig isn't providing the friction you want
(ie. there's too few cross-biners), then put the rope between
your legs and grab it behind you. Bringing your hand back
to waist level wraps the rope around your leg (over your leg
loop) and gives you lots of fine control. At that point,
changing the position of your hand varies the amount of
friction against your leg, similar to the other devices.
Of course, you could have added a biner before you started.
From: Michael Riches
How the hell do you rig a biner brake with only 4 biners?
Freedom of the Hills page 161. This shows six biners, but only the four
are necessary for the brake. You'd use a locking biner instead of two
opposed gate biners to attach the brake to your harness anyway (at least I
would).
See also:
Carabiner Brake Rappel from Chockstone (added 5/24/02)
Rapping with a Dulfersitz
Start here: Dulfersitz Rappel from Climber.org
From: Dave Andersen
The
dulfersitz is a method of rappelling where the rope runs around your body
(and under yer butt, hence the "sitz").
From: Pat Nay
I finally understoody why the
Dulfersitz was invented in Germany by Hans Dulfer; the Bavarians love to wear
those cute little leather pants called bundehosen (long) and lederhosen
(short). Those suckers really keep the heat down when the cord is sliding
near ones nether regions.
Rapping with a Munter Hitch
Start here: Munter Hitch Rap from The BRMRG Knot Review
From: Mahoi Huang
when rapelling with a Munter you are supposed to
give the free end of the rope a upward pull, exacty opposite compared
with rappeling with an ATC or an 8.
From: Michael John Bannister
How do you rap a double rope with a Munter hitch?
Um. Pretend the two ropes are one (kinda like a figure-8 on a bight),
and tie a munter hitch.
PS I've rappelled with a munter on a small D and it worked fine (twisted
the rope like crazy though).
From: Wayne Busch
A munter hitch on a single locking biner works, but will twist the hell out of
the ropes. If you have to use it, be the last guy down so you don't hold
everyone up dealing with the snarled mess it leaves.
From: Karl Baba
I much prefer a biner break to a munter for rapping because it is so
smooth and doesn't kink the rope, however the munter rules for some
things, such as:
1. Biner break sucks for small diameter ropes. munter gives great
friction for rapping stuff like 8mil
2. I had to bail with a haulbag clipped to my belay loop out of the
stovelegs on El Cap this year, rapping on an 8 mil static and 10.5
dynamic. I rapped first with the bag so I could choose between rapping
one line or two. The grigri rap was jerky and hellish since me fatty
and piggy fatty added up to so much. My Stitch plate didn't provide the
right friction but a munter worked great.
3. With a munter through a large pear biner, it is possible to pass an
EDK when lowering someone in an emergency situation. I know it sounds
dicey but when you want to get somebody up to 380 feet to the ground
stat, it's good to know.
Belaying with a Munter Hitch
Start here: Munter Hitch Belay from Vertical Devices
From: Steven Deem
It also holds better than any belay device in a variety of situations, and
doesn't require extra equipment - just a big locker. Its a great thing to
learn.
From: Zack
with the munter,
braking is up and parallel to the incoming rope as opposed to down and
behind you with belay devices. this isn't a drawback but is easily
confusing if you're not used to it. the munter is a great
hitch/knot/trick to know, but for everyday stuff, give me a belay device.
From: Matt Dimeo
Regarding rope twist when using the munter hitch, I read that you don't
get much when the hitch is loose (i.e. using it to belay), and that it's
more of a problem when rapping on one.
True. I use the munter hitch to belay a second all the time,
on a number of different types of rope (blue water, maxim,
edelweiss) with absolutely no twist problems. Rapping could
be bad; use a biner brake if you drop your ATC.
From: Jon Freedner
on p. 73 of Advanced Rock Climbing by John Long and Craig Luebben:
"Also, be careful that the rope sliding across the gate does not unscrew your
locking biner. This is possible, though unlikely when belaying; however, if
you should ever rappel using a Munter hitch, the continuous downward movement
can result in friction on the locking gate, and can unscrew it loose in a
matter of feet."
If you play around a bit you will find that it is possible to rig the
munter hitch in such a way that the gate can become unscrewed even with the
load strand near the spine. This is best described as a mirror image of the
"correct" Munter hitch illustration found in most books. (The "correct" method
being that the friction of the running rope will only serve to tighten the
screwgate)
Practice, practice, practice and crank that screwgate down tight, or do
what I do and use an HMS biner with a "supersafe" autolocking gate. No amount
of friction or torque on the sleeve can cause the gate to unlock. From what I
can tell, the Petzl "Spinball" and "Ball Lock" gates may work just as well as
my supersafe, but I haven't tried them yet.
See also:
Munter hitch from Climbing Magazine
Belaying with a hip belay
Start here: Hip Belay from Climbing Magazine
From: Eric Coomer
Hip belays are wonderful things and everyone should be comfortable with
them. Moving fast over easy terrain, cold icy ropes that won't fit through
a belay device, you suddenly forgot how to tie a munter hitch... There
are tons of applications where a hip belay makes sense and is completely
practicle, safe, and a nice addition to the repertoire.
From: Hal Murray
For belaying the leader, the position you want is standing with
the belay rope under your seat. If the leader falls, you end up
sitting on the rope. Gloves are (almost) required. This is
sometimes called the hot-seat.
You also want a biner cliped to your swami on the side away from
your belaying hand. The lead rope runs under your tie-in rope
and through that biner. That biner is the only thing that keeps
the system together if the leader falls off before clipping into
something. (or if the something fails) That biner is also a
handy guide.
A hot-seat will probably put less force on the pro than a belay
using a modern device.
From: Kenny
If you plan to use one always clip the rope through your harness to keep
it from being pulled off of you or out of position where it could burn you
or worse, cause you to drop your partner. Always run the rope through a
non directional first point of pro if possible, or the anchor, to direct
the flow of rope in case of a fall. It is also a good idea to be
statically anchored since your partner may pull you around a bit if he/she
falls and the belay is your *body* and not a piece of hardware designed
specifically for the task.
From: William Gooch
I may be
showing my age here, but I've caught plenty of falls (lead
and toprope) using hip belays, and it's really no problem.
The friction is generally greater than with most belay
devices, and the force on the belayer's body isn't any
big deal. Lowering can be tricky because of the potential
for friction burns if the rope slips up too high, but running
it through a biner on your harness takes care of that (well,
maybe if you're only wearing lycra you might be concerned
even with the biner...).
From: Phil Sidel
I was convinced that "the system works" when my partner caught me
with his hip belay on a 100'+ fall -- fall factor was close to 2.
I even kicked him on the arm as I sailed past, causing him to lose
some rope. (There were no cracks on that pitch so the pitons hanging
from my waist belt were of no use).
Well, the system worked, but I also was aware that I lived because
I had Dale Ordes, an alert, competent partner, belaying me. There
is no substitute for a good partner! That's still true, even in
this day of harnesses, sticky rubber, and belay devices.
From: George Bell
On long alpine
climbs, sometimes you want to do fast pitches on easy 5th class terrain.
When you reach the end of a pitch, fire in a couple pieces and start
belaying your second with a body belay. When they are sprinting up
easy ledges the body belay is the only way to keep up with them. I don't
know how many times I've seen people wasting several minutes using a belay
device when the second is just walking along a ledge!
See also:
How to perform a hip belay from Emazing.com
Safety: Page 1 2 3 4
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