What knot should I use to join two ropes for rappel? / Is the EDK really a "death knot"?
How can I climb harder? (for experienced climbers)
What are twin ropes, double ropes, and half ropes and how do I use them?
What should I buy/carry for a second rope?
How do I belay two seconds simultaneously? / How can we climb efficiently as a party of three?
How do I top-rope self-belay?
How do I self-belay on lead?
All bolting questions
How do I prevent injury to the leader on overhanging routes by providing a dynamic belay?
How do I make a harness out of webbing or rope?
How do I use Tiblocs to protect against the second falling while simul-climbing?
When, where, and how should I pass a slower party?

What knot should I use to join two ropes for rappel? / Is the EDK really a "death knot?" [back to top] [FAQ contents]

All of the quotes below were taken from the European Death Knot Testing thread.  The first set of test data is found in Msg 1 and the second set is found in Msg 58. Download the test results in an Excel spreadsheet

From: Tom Moyer

The failure mode for the figure eight version is to flip/invert/capsize, which then becomes the identical twin of the first knot, just with shorter tails. After enough of these events there are no tails left and the knot fails. Leaving at least a foot of tail is recommended.

I spent a few hours yesterday in my front yard with a come-a-long and a load cell to try to get some decent information on this. The results still leave room for plenty of argument. People who don't like the figure eight will say, "See, it slips at really low loads!" People who do like it will say, "See, if you dress it right, pretension it well, and leave long tails, it doesn't fail. Besides, I've been using it for years and I'm still alive!"

If you're too impatient to wade through the results below, the short answer is that if you do all those things, you should be ok. My question is - why would you take the chance? If you're in a situation where a stuck rope would be catastrophic, use the overhand. It has all the same advantages and not nearly as much risk.

From: Ben Craft

I think it all depends upon what type of rock you are on. The thought of the rope catching is why I constantly use the overhand and in my experience the overhand does perform better on the rock that I have encountered this season on traverses in the sierras even when you consider the hundreds of rappel tricks. If you are on terrain that safer knot will work just as well, why use the overhand

From: Nate

The margin of safety an overhand provides is unacceptable to me, especially when a real knot takes so little additional effort.

From: Karl Baba

The margin of REAL safety the overhand provides is the whole reason to use it.

How many folks have died when their death knot came undone, (if any, it was a freak accident)?

How many folks have died or had a horro epic when their rap ropes got stuck and they had to bivy or do something slow and/or desparately dangerous to free them,  I'm sure we will never know but I bet there are plenty.

The zero profile of an overhand is a truly significant advantage that I have personally experienced significantly helping in rope retrieval.  When I KNOW there is no sweat pulling the ropes, I use a double fishermans, just to keep my partners from getting nervous, but when there is a doubt, it is the oEDK!

From: Dave Andersen

The inversion of an overhand is a much less serious event than the inversion of a figure 8.  Furthermore, if you actually look at the test data, you'll note that after one inversion, the next inversion occurs at a considerably higher level of force.  If you leave 12" of tails on a pretty poorly tightened overhand, you're still not going to die until the force on the ropes gets to over 1200 pounds or so.  Sure, I'll give you that you could do this if you really put your mind to it, rapping on the rope and then constantly taking huge falls on it, but what in the world are you doing taking factor one falls on your rap rope?

The safety margin in an 8 is much reduced;  the knot both inverts more easily, *and* eats up a lot of rope when it inverts.  Thus, you can suffer fewer inversions on an 8 than you can on an overhand.  The difference is significant, and makes up the difference between a safe knot and an unsafe knot *FOR LOW LOADS*.

But if you do take whippers while rapping, please do use a double fishermans. :)

From: Gary Clark

why not just use the double fisherman's knot and blow off the rest of this?

Good question, not obvious from the discussion.

Double fisherman knots are quite prone to hanging up in any crack they encounter, or over an edge.  The knots being discussed tend to stand up in the air, so that only the ropes are against the rock (see the diagram at the Petzl web site).  These knots will have much less tendency to catch on an edge or in a constriction.  Also, they untie much easier after loading than the double-fish knot.

How can I climb harder (experienced climbers)? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

Recommended books:

Performance Rock Climbing by Dale Goddard and Udo Neumann
Flash Training by Eric Horst
How to Climb 5.12 by Eric Horst

From: John Byrnes

Wanna get better?  Go climb what you don't like.

Are you a sport climber?  Go climb Trad.  Trad?  Go climb a bunch of sport routes.

Hate offwidth?  Go do them.  Cracks?  Go do them too.  Do you fall off of slabs?  Go do a bunch of them.

From: Mark Hinman

It's easy to get from 5.6 to 5.9- it then gets harder to get to from 5.9 to 5.10- then it takes some really hard work to get to 5.11. Beyond that, it takes an almost obsessive commitment to push the grades. Not everybody can make that commitment, nor, should they.

The folks that I know who have successfully pushed the grades are the ones that were able to tolerate failure on a daily basis, working hard day after day in a seemingly pointless quest. You can't do anything difficult in any other fashion.

From: Undercling

So don't miss this one other point:  to climb upper grades, you have to have a perfect foundation in the lower grades---meaning by this, climb a tremendous amount of rock below your top difficulty so you REALLY have total understanding of that place before you expect to be consistent in grades above that place.  Too often, I see now, climbers climbing only things quite hard for them, and not actually preparing for those grades. I know alot of younger newer climbers who basically are climbing in the 5.11+ range and have hardly done any 5.8s and 5.9s and of course have this silly gaping hole  in their repertoire.  They are quite spotty in their achievements, failing relatively often, and not covering enough ground, so to speak.

From: lower me up

I don't think that you ever stop working on form- good form is about efficient movement and a person can always learn from watching good climbers on hard routes. In my own experience, the move into the midrange 12's necessitated a change in the way that I worked the climbs. At the time that I was breaking into those grades I had a partner that was working a number grade harder. Watching the way that he systematically dialed the moves taught me a lot about how to work hard climbs. Switching from a mode where I tried to climb the route every try versus days that I came to the route with the intention of spending my energy dialing the crux or working from the crux to the finishing moves, etc.

From: Ken Cline

So far everyone is saying that technique is the key and you don't need strength to climb 5.12. ARE YOU GUYS ALL ON DRUGS??? Technique is crucial, to be sure, but the climbers who walk up hard routes are so freaking strong they can rest on holds I can hardly pull on. I think that specific strength training (either climbing or in the gym) is necessary to climb at the 5.12 level and that, except for the occasional overrated balance problem (like my first "5.12", Team Machine at the New), no amount of technique is likely to get you there.

From: Bob Harrington

This sounds like a lot of work.  I think he should just find a 5.13 that's way over rated and climb it.

See also:

What training program should I use to get stronger? on Tradgirl
How can I climb better? (for beginners) on Tradgirl

What are twin ropes, double ropes, and half ropes and how do I use them?[back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Robert K. Hanson

A rope marked (on the end of the rope and/or on the tag) with the following (inside a circle):

(1) A single rope. Use just one of these puppies.

(1/2) A "half" rope. This is what most people mean when they say "double" rope. Use two of these, alternating pieces. If you fall on these, you want to fall on just one of them.

(oo) = the infinity symbol. This is a twin rope. Use two of these. Clip both ropes to EVERY piece. Best to use two carabiners on each piece -- one for each rope. If you fall on these, you VERY MUCH want to fall on both of them.

From: David Kreindler

I think it is important not to confuse half ropes and twin ropes. Twin ropes must be treated as a single. Half ropes are best not treated as a single. Using twins as if they were halfs (halves?) could result in rope failure. Using halfs as if they were twins could result in dangerously high impact forces

From: Bernd Nebendahl

There is virtually no difference between handling of a single rope and two strands of a twin rope. There is of course a big difference if you refer to double ropes (i.e. two strands of a half rope).

From: Stefan Kruger

In the UK most people climb on doubles, which seems weird to Americans, but the benefits are many, once you figure out how to do it efficiently. If you're belaying a leader, flake out the ropes into two piles next to eachother, and make sure that the ropes go through your belay plate in the same, eh, orientation as the leader is tied in, for example, blue rope to the left, red rope to the right. As the leader wishes to clip a rope, he'll shout 'BLUE' (or 'RED') before he starts yarding it out if you're out of sight. If one rope is clipped over head, and the other is lower, the belayer will have to be able to take in on one rope, whilst simultaneously give slack on the other -- this technique takes some practice to master, and will probably result in shouted leader-to-belayer abuse in the beginning.

When the leader reaches a stance, he pulls home the ropes, and starts belaying the second. Here care must be taken to ensure that slack is taken in from the two ropes individually.

Advantages of double roping:

Two ropes are intrinsically more secure, should a rope be cut by rockfall, or over an edge.

Two ropes will double the distance that you can rappel.

Two ropes will reduce rope drag, reduce the number of extended runners required, and enable more off-line runner placements to be used.

Two ropes can be a lot more secure for the second, on routes that involve a traverse, where the leader can clip one rope during the traverse, and thus enabling the other rope to be above the second.

More subtle: at each clip, you'll have to pull out a lot less rope above your last runner, since you'll alternate ropes. This is very useful, especially near the ground, or above marginal gear.

Two ropes means that two seconds can follow a leader.

From: Iain

As with any climbing gear there are trade offs in single versus double rope systems. Double ropes allow more flexibility when placing protection and managing rope drag when compared to a single rope. Even if a climb does not wander, if the ropes are clipped in an alternate fashion no slack is introduced in the rope clipped through the previous placement when making the next clip. As a consequence, the slack required to clip the next piece will not increase the length of the fall as with a single rope. However, the drawback is that rope management is increased and the narrower diameter ropes have a greater propensity to snarl. Double ropes inherently always allow a full rope length rappell but weigh more than a single rope if this is not an issue. There is redundancy in having two separate ropes with doubles but the chances of cutting any one rope is increase over a fatter single rope. Finally and perhaps most importantly, double ropes generally have a lower impact force which can make the difference on marginal gear but conversely have a great coefficient of stretch which could increase your chance of hitting a ledge.

If you exclusively climbed the longer multipitch routes in the Valley or the backcountry routes in the high Sierra I would say double ropes would be the way to go. However, the simplicity and durability of single ropes makes them better suited to the cragging of the average climber (not to say that you are average) and work fine on longer routes when combined with skinnier rap line. I probably use my single and my doubles about the same amount, however, if I was to go with one system exclusively it would be the single.

From: Ilkka

How in the world do you communicate which rope requires slack for clipping when the wind is howling and you are around the corner and out of sight of your belayer on something like the Grand Teton?

Ummm... just like you communicate with a single. The leader tugs, wheeps, curses, prayes and tugs again and the belayer pays out as much slack as he/she thinks is necessary. Which rope is tugged is easy to tell (the belayer is holding onto them) and if unsure, well, give slack on both then take in what seems to be unused. If you give too much slack or always on the wrong rope the leader kicks your butt at the top, if you don't give enough the leader kicks your butt at the top - the life of the belayer, single or double.

From: Eric Coomer

Someone here once suggested there is a potential problem with the 2 lead ropes rubbing against one another in a fall where both ropes are clipped to once piece through one biner.

This "situation" is only a *possibility* if you're using standard double rope technique and decide to clip both ropes into one biner ala twin technique somewhere along the route. The *theory* is that since the two ropes by virtue of the double technique take different paths (as opposed to twin tech) in a fall the ropes will stretch differently and hence may lead to friction between the two strands if clipped into one biner on the same piece. If you climb with twins and clip every piece with both ropes, the path lengths are the same and hence both ropes being "identical" will not stretch differently etc.

It's a convoluted theory, but if I'm climbing with doubles and end up clipping both ropes to one piece, I'll use two biners- why not. But, if I'm using twins, I'll always clip both ropes to a single biner.

From: Tim Marsh

Here's a tip though: think very carefuly about the colours you get. You're going to be referring to them a lot.

From: Ken.Cline

Does the UIAA drop test for double (AKA =BD) ropes differ from the test for single ropes?

Yup.. They drop less mass (55kg vs. 80kg for singles) and require lower fall force (8kn vs 12kn for singles).

If so, what is the logic behind this, and would that not mean that double ropes are not suited to climbs where there is a long distance between protection placements?

The test proves that each strand will hold a very hard (though not worst case) fall - about fall factor 1.2 - without exceeding 8kN of force. That's pretty low force (for a hard fall) to begin with, but real half ropes hold this fall with more like 5kN. At least when new. It's a safe bet that one half rope will hold a harder fall (without exceeding forces that'll harm you), and a pretty good idea to think about replacing it if it has.

However, let's say a half rope instantly fails at the point at which it exceeds the test load. What happens then? At that point, it will have absorbed over 2/3 (55/80) of the energy of the worst case (test) fall, leaving the remaining strand responsible for holding a fall of relatively modest energy. The climber may free-fall at that point, but there is ample energy absorbing capacity left in the system. The big risk is that you might get hurt (or die) hitting things as you drop further.

If not, then why not climb on one strand of a double rope?

Thinner ropes will cut more easily. I'll take both strands or a single rope, though I know someone who used to climb hard slab routes on a single half rope.

I see no difference between climbing on one strand of a double rope, and climbing a pitch with 30-foot runouts between placements: In either event, the leader is relying on only one rope of a system to stop the fall.

The difference is that there is a backup, though you may fall an appreciable distance further getting to it. Doubles have never both failed, while single ropes have been cut in a fall. That's a pretty good reason, for starters. More importantly, it is very likely that the single strand will stop any fall. It is also very likely (based on the behavior of nylon) that the catch will be softer than on a single rope.

I .. have not seen an answer to these questions. It seems to me that a single rope is intrinsically safer than alternating clips with a double rope system if the runouts are long:

If there is a rope cutting flake, doubles may be the safer choice.

if a 8.8mm rope fails in a long leader fall, I'll likely be dead before the second rope stops me, or at least will have built up enough kinetic energy to cause the failure of the second rope as well.

Like I said above, the work done on the first rope will have used up most of your KE, so the second rope will have an easy catch. Personally, I try pretty hard to avoid long, high ff falls onto just one strand of my doubles.

Both systems are compromises. I use both, and pick whichever seems best for the climb at hand.

See also:

The above exchange between Brutus and Ken was taken from this useful thread: Twin Rope V Single on Google Groups
Gunks.com's article on double rope technique
What rope should I buy? on Tradgirl

What should I buy/carry for a second rope? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Nate

Here's my experience:

6mm static. Tangles, wears out quickly, questionable security, waste of time.

7mm static. Also tangles, okay wear, secure enough although I now always set up the raps such that the thicker rope is going through the anchor. This slows down multipitch raps because you can't start threading the next rap until you have both ends of the rope. Also, pulling on the thin rope every time is riskier and more work. Great weight advantage and very compact. This is how I go most of the time.

8mm static. Pretty much just like a normal rope. Good tangle resistance, great wear, great security, very little slip through the anchor. No need to thread through the anchor a special way to prevent slip and increase security like the 7mm. Unfortunately they weigh more and you can pack about 2 7mm lines in the same space as 1 8mm line. This is the absolute minimum I would jug on - so I usually have an 8mm with me on walls as the zip/lower-off line.

9 + mm dynamic. Why carry another lead line just to rap with? I do many of my long alpine routes on a 9mm as the primary lead line. A good 9mm and a 7mm rap line is a pretty light and low drag way to go - if you're up for it and know what you are getting into.

The great thing about a rap line vs. double ropes is that you can haul in a pinch with the rap line. I usually do this for really hard pitches - where seconding with the pack would be miserable, if even possible. The rest of the time, I tend to pack away the rap line. A 60m x 7mm is about the same volume as my rain gear.

From: Spencer

I'd really think about whether or not you want to lead on doubles exclusively. They do have their place, but for every day use I prefer a single line (this is only one person's opinion). I've been happy with my decision to add one 8.5mm 60m to my quiver of ropes. It can be used as a trail line for raps, zip line for walls, etc, etc, etc. I've used it alone on select alpine routes up to moderate 5th class; though, a 9mm might be more confidence inspiring if you do this a lot (or even a single 9.4-10.0mm if you want lots of reassurance in the mountains and don't mind the weight).

Actually ... I'm fairly convinced that an 8mmx60m haul line is the right thing to get.

By haul line do you mean static line? If you do decide to get an 8mm static, just be aware that its usefulness will be limited. You'll use it for those double rope raps and light hauling, but probably not much else. It might depend on where you climb, also.

So, if you frequently do routes which require multiple raps as a means of descent, the static might be worth it. But if you mostly encounter double rope raps on single pitch routes with casual approaches, you might be better served with the 60m 10.5 or 8.5-9.0mm - the latter if you see yourself doing alpine.

From: Edward Gerety

I have used a 50m length of 7mm accessory cord for a long time, now. It weighs almost nothing and works well when used with a lead rope for rappelling. Maxim's 7mm cord has a tensile strength of 1050kg, according to their literature.

I have carried it into the mountains on many occasions and use it alone for raps that make the descent faster.

From: Brad Brandewie

I have a 65m length of 7mm cord. I like it because it is lighter. I got the longer 7mm because the smaller lines slip faster through rappel devices.

From: Karl Lew

It varies depending on the weight vs. safety tradeoff. For example, I know I can rap off West Crack with one 60m rope and 135' accessory cord, so that's what I take. For a half-day multi-pitch trad onsight, I'd take my 10.5x60m as well as one 8.1x60m double rope. The double is dynamic for use as an actual double on traversing routes or for rappels--I don't haul. I might take two doubles on a full-day easy trad route just to save weight, because I sure don't like hitting ledges when the doubles stretch and stretch and stretch.

From: Ted Compton

I like Karl's ideas. Either bring one lead line and one double (for use as he suggests). Or just use the accessory cord trick. The problem with an 8mm static is that it is worthless for real hauling, too heavy to just cary along, and useless as a spare lead rope or an "alpine" lead rope. I'd either be real cheap and buy accessory cord or spring for the 60m doubles. Or just get a new 60m lead line and cary both heavy ropes.

From: Bill Folk

If the choice is betwen 8.1mm dynamic and 8mm static then sure, why not use the dynamic. But 6 or 7 mil cord is lighter and cheaper, and as another poster mentioned, you can get it cut longer to compensate for the thinner cord slipping. Downsides of the thinner cords? They tangle worse, and are harder to pull.

I don't think that there is a single best answer. The optimum solution depends on the specifc route you are doing, and the style in which you are doing it, as well as your willingness to accept the remote possibility of having to lead up to clear a stuck rope on accessory cord (hopefully doubled!) with a dynamic belay!

From: John Byrnes

Cost: dynamic is usually a good deal more

Stretch: makes it harder to haul even a small bag. Think about trying to haul that bag over a small roof with lots of stretch.

From: Brutus of Wyde

I regularly use 6mm for a zipline on walls, and the tangles can be consistent, involve every piece of gear you brought along, any nearby shrubbery, and half of your partner's small intestine. Taking after Craig Francois, my 6mm zips all have received names like "Lucifer" "Demon" and "Satan."

From: Russ Schwartz

Not making any recommendations - you'll have to decide for yourself. I'm currently on my third 6 mm line, so obviously I'm comfortable that the pro's outweigh the con's in most situations. I always make sure the larger rope runs through the anchor, that way the knot hits against it and keeps the smaller diameter rope from running through the ATC at a faster rate. Haven't needed a glove, just requires a little more pressure from the brake hand. The main con's are 1) the 6 mm is so damn light it gets caught on everything - real pain of low angle slabs, 2) on multi-rap descents it takes a little longer to thread at the next rap anchor because you have to wait for the knot to get there, then thread a blight of the larger diameter rope.

The question you didn't ask (thank you), is which knot to use in joining them. I use the overhand when using two climbing diameter rope, but haven't been able to make myself use it for a 6mm and a 10mm - even though Clyde recommended it.

Bought them at REI off the spool.

From: Steve Susswein

I've never rapped on 6mm, but I regularly rap on 7mm static while canyoneering. I use an ATc, and while there's definitely less friction compared to a standard 10.5, it still doable. I usually run the rope around my back after it goes through the ATc for a bit more control.

From: Ratagonia

If you want more friction on your ATC-type device, use doubled carabiners. This forces a much longer twistier path that makes it a fair amount slower. Of course I mean to use the two biners right next to each other - gates reversed - like we used to do at the top of topropes or for belaying without a locking biner - damn, if you don't know what I mean, don't try it.

Anyway, I used a 7mm beater for a few trips this spring and just couldn't take it. Too small. The coreshot on our "big" 9mm rope 2/3 of the way down did not help. Now I've switched to a BD Trail line 8mm static which I like real well. (But I work for BD so I got a good deal).

With two different diameter ropes, the differential stretch will tend to migrate the rope at the anchor. You can avoid this problem by feeding the rope through the device carefully.

From: Karl Baba

I bring along a 5 or 6 mil 60 meter line coiled in a backpack when I am doing a route that I don't expect to have to rappel on, but want to be responsible and have that option. I think it is safer than going with just one rope.

Having two substantial rope might be generally safer, but when you are trying to get up 20+ pitches in a day, having a trail line get snagging, having it weigh you down, and having to mess with it, can all add up to a safety liability all its own.

When I know I am going to rap and can afford to drag a bigger rope, I bring an 8.8 although I have friends who use 7 mil with little trouble.

From: John Brynes

I, too am dubious about rapping on 6mm or 7mm cord, some what due to strength, but also due to a special ability to tangle up any rope I toss down a cliff face.

I agree. This was one of the big factors that convinced me that a 8mm rope was worth the extra weight (over a 6 or 7mm). It actually handles like a rope instead of a "velcro string with wings".

But let me add that carrying a 6mm in the pack for unplanned retreats, like Karl B does, is a reasonable compromise. But using a 6mm for a haul line just seems like too much irritation to me.

From: Kalin Kojouahrov

Having read all the replies up to here, noone suggests other rap technique...

Use your lead (or any other >10mm) rope and one other (>4mm) prussik, both at the desired length. Feed some of the primary rope through your anchor setup (use slings, rings, knot at the end of the rap etc. at will). Tie the smallest fig8 on a bight you can at the short end of your primary rope and clip a biner there. Clip the biner to the (long end of) primary rope. This way, if you pull on the long end, the biner slips up to your anchor and stops there. Tie the prussik to the bight or the biner or anywhere else on the short end. Depending on the diameter of the secondary rope some designs are preferrable. Clip to the primary rope (below the biner) and go rap (Yes, on a single rope). When you are down and off the rope, pull the secondary. This way the biner will slide down the primary and you'll have your rope back. Wath out for the biner (and wear helmet!).

I have used this setup 5-6 times for a less-than-the-rope length rappels with 10.5mm dynamic rope. It works fine. It has a lot of weak points which I'll leave for you. If you consider it safe, use it. Train at home before you practice!

In case you haven't bought the book (and it is a very good book!) chet it out: Extreme Alpinism : Climbing Light, Fast, and High

From: Rex Pieper

The biner DOESN'T come whizzing down at you either, since most often it's in your hand before the end of the rope pulls through the rap anchor. While I wouldn't want to use this method if I was rapping through blocky, snag prone terrain, I have no qualms in using it otherwise, especially if you're rapping off something that had a possibility of not keeping the knot from pulling through the anchor, say a tree tied off with a loop of webbing sans rap ring.

See also:

Choosin' and Usin' that Skinny, Scary Haul Line by John Byrnes
The Blue Broccoli Rubber Band All-Clean Rappel Method by Karl Lew (despite the funny-sounding name, this is a serious alternative)

How do I belay two seconds simultaneously? / How can we climb efficiently as a party of three? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: David Kreindler

Belaying two seconds does not really require an auto-locking device. It is about as difficult as belaying a leader on half ropes. (If you lead on half ropes, climbing with a group of three does not even require an additional rope; simply have the followers each tie in to one strand.)

From: Cathy Proenza

I often belay two seconds at the same time, using two ropes in my belay device (ATC or similar device works fine). Each second ties into one of the ropes and they climb about 30 feet apart. They are completely separate from each other so they won't knock or pull one another off. It is a bit of a pain to belay two people at once, but it seems to work OK (I've both fallen and caught falls using this system). I prefer to use double ropes (8.8 or 9 mil) instead of two 10.5 ropes, but I've done it both ways.

There are some drawbacks to this system -- it almost always means that the seconds will be facing longer falls than they would normally. So it works best with relatively experienced climbers and in cases when you are not expecting a ton of falls. If you expect someone will have a hard time with a pitch, it's probably better to belay them one at a time. Also, it's exciting to fall on a single 9 mil rope since it stretches a lot, so the belayer should keep it pretty tight, especially when the climbers are close to the ground. The benefit overall, though, is that a party of three can travel almost as fast as a party of two.

From: Devonshire

The Gi Gi (not GRI GRI) is the best (from my experience) for belaying 2 people moving at once. The simple device lets you do a hands free autolocking belay with minimal effort and set up. It costs like $20 and weighs nothing so I would reccomend it highly. You could always use a double Munter Hitch setup (nasty twists will emerge in small dia. ropes.).

From: Theresa Ho

I haven't seen the GiGis, but I've used a French device called a Plaquette (? I don't actually know how to spell this) which looks a little like an elongated stitch plate with a hole for a biner at one end. It's simple, lightweight, no moving parts and allows you to lock off one second and still take up rope for the other, all on the same device. I saw them all over the place while in Europe recently. The simul-belaying technique is great for moving quickly in a party of three if both seconds are comfortable with a little slack building up in the system. (When both seconds are moving fast it can be quite a job for the belayer to keep up with two people moving at different speeds.) It's also nice for beginners who might need to be talked through a tricky crux.

From: Scott Fischbein

I've used the Gi-Gi (same thing as the European plaquette that Theresa mentioned) a lot for guiding and can highly recommend it. I'd generally agree with everything that was stated in the review, and would emphasize the physicality of belaying with the gi-gi, especially with thicker (10.5 or more) ropes. If your seconds are moving slowly, and you have thinner ropes (10 mm or less) than it's not too much extra effort, but if they're climbing quickly, or your ropes are thick and/or fuzzy, it's exhausting. I was guiding some clients up Frogland in Red Rocks once, and my fellow guide had managed to abscond with the newer, less fuzzy ropes, and the two clients were pretty solid on most of the pitches, moving pretty quickly- I thought my shoulders would explode by the end of the day. I was so relieved when they reached the belays and I could start climbing again- a chance to rest!

When climbing with competent friends (not guiding!) on relatively easy terrain, I've often used the technique whereby one climber ties into the end of the rope and another ties in about 20 feet higher. This technique has it's drawbacks, but it's generally safe. The first climber has a pretty standard belay as long as the leader keeps the slack out of the system. The second climber (who should be the stronger of the two) can end up with a little slack if she climbs too fast, but if both climbers climb at about the same pace, it's not too much of a problem. If the first climber is significantly slower, he can leave all the gear in place for the second climber to remove, which should slow things down a bit for the second. The biggest caveat with this technique is that the terrain should be pretty easy for both climbers, especially for the second. This weekend, I climbed Dogleg (in J Tree) in this fashion and it was a lot more challenging than usual because the guy who was in front of me was not climbing very quickly at all, and I often got stuck having to rest in awkward positions while waiting for him to move upwards... a nice way to practice milking those handjams for an extra couple of minutes. Anyway, I don't consider this technique to be "standard practice," but I've used it plenty of times on easier ground, and it works just fine, and obviously speeds things up considerably.

From: Brutus of Wyde

I have used the simul technique (ATC, 2 ea. 8.8mm ropes) numerous times including a trip up Snake Dike on Half Dome, it worked quite well and allows the two "seconds" to move at different speeds. It helps to have someone experienced at belaying double rope technique.

The "Plaquette" or whatever it is called works well too, but doesn't seem worth getting an extra piece of gear for this purpose unless you will be using it a lot. It also works well for belaying a second while hauling a small pack at the same time, another time saver on long steep routes.

I prefer not to "short rope" (tie the third climber 20 feet below the second) because a fall by the third can weight the second, and the two climbers must move at a fairly equal pace. YMMV.

From: Karl Baba

there is no reason you can't belay with two ropes on an ATC.

If one of the seconds falls or hangs, I believe the other second would have to stop wherever they were until the situation was resolved. With a reverso, you can keep belaying one second if the other second is hanging on the rope.

From: Kelly Rich

I have heard of folks using two Gri-Gris to "sumul-belay." Make a bomb-proof anchor with two "master" points and place a gri-gri on each.

While this probably saves time, I have to wonder about the climbing experience for the two folks climbing at once. I think I'd feel like I was in a circus.

From: Mark Bockman

If at least 2 of the 3 climbers are willing to lead, here's a relatively hassle-free method to use. The leader climbs on double ropes, sets up a belay at the end of his pitch, and puts both ropes on belay after taking in. The other two climbers each tie into one of the ropes and follow simultaneously, keeping a safe distance between them. This requires extra vigilance on the part of the belayer, who needs to make sure that both ropes are always slack-free and locked-off. When the climbers both reach the belay, they clip into the anchor, and one of them unties from the rope. The second leader then ties into this same end of the rope and starts his lead, still belayed by the original leader.

This method allows a party of three to move almost as quickly as a party of two, and reduces a lot of the belay hassles that otherwise plague a three-person party. Note that on difficult terrain, the two climbers following the pitch may want to go one at a time in order to avoid interfering with each other.

From: Ilana Stern

Sounds like a good method for relatively easy terrain when simultaneous climbing and belaying of 2 climbers is a reasonable thing to do. But I think it's better to have the previous leader untie from one of her ropes to give to the next leader, rather than have someone completely untied from all ropes.

The way I climb with 3-on-a-rope when 2 or 3 want to lead is as follows. Leader (A) climbs on double ropes, constructs a good anchor, and belays the second (B), who cleans all the gear except for important directionals which are left so the third climber (C) doesn't take a big swing if she falls. When B arrives, A hands her the rack and commences to belay C, who is tied into A via the other rope, while B racks the gear and prepares to lead.

When C is at the stance and tied into the anchor, A (who is tied into both ropes) unties from the A-C rope and B ties in with that end also. Now B is tied into both ropes, and leads the second pitch, belayed by A, who by this time is getting damn sick of belaying. Whoever plans to lead the next pitch (A or C) goes second, and repeat.

This is a little slower than simultaneous climbers, but perhaps not by much, since the third climber ascends while the rack is being re-assembled, which needs to happen in either case except at the top, and it's no doubt easier to climb or belay when there's only one climber to worry about. Also, having the leader untie one of her two ropes to give to the next leader means that everyone is always tied into at least one rope -- although of course this is only meaningful if the rope is tied into something too! (Of course nothing would prevent you from using this tie/untie protocol with simultaneous climbers.)

From: Ergophobe

If you're well organized it can actually be faster than a party of two. Two essential tips:

1. Get a belay device like a New Alp Plaquette or a XX Gi-gi. These allow a no-hands lockoff of either second while the rope still feeds for the other.

2. Set the belay device directly into the belay at about head level.

If the climbing's at all hard an anyone is going to fall or wants a tight rope, belaying off the harness with an ATC is a problem.

As for the chance of cutting ropes - sometimes scares the piss out of me. The leader must be extra careful to avoid sharp edges.

Note: Tom followed up on his statement that "it can actually be faster than a party of two" in this thorough post available on Google Groups

From: Keith Jewell

Another way to speed things up when climbing with three people is to send the second up with the extra rope, fix the rope, then the second belays the leader on the next pitch while the third self-belays up on the fixed rope. It's a bit more dangerous, but there is no substantial loss of time compared to two climbers only. You do run the risk of getting the second rope stuck, unless the third brings it up as they go.

See also:

The Good and the Bad About Gi-Gi from the Hurley Newsletters
What's the most efficient way to work as a three person team? on Tradgirl for aid climbing with three people

How do I top-rop self-belay? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

From: Tom Stybr

I've had great success TRing on a fixed line with a GriGri. Either clove hitch the rope at the bottom or weight it with the rest of the rope coiled. It self-feeds just fine. Rap with the GriGri or clip in, pull up the rope to the middle and rap with ATC or the like. The latter allows me to pull the rope down from the bottom when I'm done.

From: Nate, 7/26/2002

self belay with gri gri? how?

1. Create bomber summit anchor.

2. Tie a Fig-8 on a bight at midrope and connect to anchor.

3. On one strand (of the two) tie Alpine Butterfly (or Fig-8) knots every 15' feet or so and let it hang back down the climb. You will clip into these as a backup as you climb.

4. At the base of the climb connect the end of the non-knotted rope to a rock-filled backpack (or anchor). This will help the device to self-feed.

5. Rig that rope into GriGri, with the rope heading to the anchor coming out of the "climber graphic" side of the GriGri.

6. Clip GriGri to your belay loop.

7. Clip another locking biner to your belay loop. This will be used to clip into the knots you pretied in the other strand of the rope as you climb up.

8. Climb (clipping into/releasing backup knots as you ascend.

From: Jim Cormier

Many different methods exist, some are good and some are questionable.

1.Silent Partner*
2.Soloist*
3.Gri-Gri*
4.Chest ascender (Petzl Croll)*
5.Ushba Basic Ascender (actually works quite well)*
6.Figure "8" rigged in auto block mode (see KONG cataloge)*
7.Camp Yo-Yo*
8.Kong Robot rigged in ascending mode*
9.Clove hitch*
10.Kong Gi-Gi
11.Garda Hart Knot

Items with * I have top roped and fallen on in the gym. AGAIN they have worked but some do have potential for failure (#6, #8 & #11) due to strange twists and slack developing at the device. Nothing beats a real partner. If you are going to play with some of these idea's you should practice in an area with a safe landing and close to the ground. "Experience is a wonderful teacher, but you must practice in order to gain knowledge".

From: mpahl

If you ask people about self belay devices, everyone, myself included, will be sure that they know the right way to do it and that everyone else is dead wrong... that said, the rescuscender is a great top-rope belay device... it feeds easy on a weighted rope, it does no harm to the rope in a fall, and it is safe from twisting or jamming off.... other ascenders just fail along these lines... the petzl basic, which gets the official OK for self belay from petzl has sharp little teeth... I watched a friend take a fall with 4 feet of slack in the system (don't say that you will avoid slack... it doesn't happen, its a reality... there will be slack in your system) and cut the sheath of my new rope, exposing 2 feet of core... In my opinion, teeth should only be used in systems where there is NO danger of slack building up, ie hauling, jugging...

the problems with the rescuscender are as follows... in order to prevent a carabiner from crossloading, you have to tie into the hole... i use 9/16 webbing... it works fine... or you could do a creative tape job to keep the biner in place... also, if you accidently grab the camming mechanism in a fall (say if you tie into it with a couple feet of webbing, then insinctivly grab the rope in front of your chest to keep yourself upright in a fall) it'll just head off down the rope... i learned this the hard way, tie in short... I went for a 15' ride till i hit a backup knot...

that's it... the rescuscender is worth the money, but look at the modified (or unmod) grigri... also nice... tie backup knots, if you are using a toothed ascender or a modified grigri, tie backup knots in another line.... don't solo at all, get a friend, soloing is stupid and dangerous... it is best reserved for social outcasts like myself who have no friends to climb with...

See also:

Operation of the Wren Soloist device For Top-Rope Rigs and the accompanying thread SOLOIST TopRope Configuration - for review/comment (10/02)
Self Belay on Top Rope (8/02)
TR Self Belay Devices (4/00)
How to Bail on Top Roped Solo (8/00)
Soloing with a gri-gri (7/01)
How do I self-belay on lead? on Tradgirl
What should I use to cushion my fall? / How can I self-belay on my home wall? on Tradgirl

How do I self-belay on lead? [back to top] [FAQ contents]

Which device to buy:

From: Peter Haan

The Silent Partner is the definitive apparatus for selfbelaying, period; has been reviewed very favorably in recent US climbing magazines in the last four months or so, and the subject appears constantly on this newsgroup ad nauseum, prompted by questions like yours. Although the device is $225, it is worth it, and the only really universal tool for solo climbing and already is wellaccepted by those who actually know anything about this special field. Also check out its related unit, the Solo Aid etc.

From: Karl Baba

Solo Aid is cheap, small and works fine for aid. Silent Partner is expensive and big but feeds itself and is the only reasonable choice for frequent leading of free climbing. I don't even think about the soloist because I have fallen upside down enough to emotionally disqualify the thing.

From: Karl Lew

The Silent Partner is the biggest and most expensive of the three, but it stops upside down falls and feeds automatically. So I like it.

From: billfolk

Silent partner is by far the best thing I've tried for rock soloing, BUT, when I asked Mark Blanchard (the inventor) about using is for ice he was very emphatic in not recommending it. I climbed with a Polish guy who used a prussic self belay with the rope feeding from a pack on his back to solo mixed routes in the Tatras in winter. He claimed to have taken some major whippers with this system, and it worked fine. I'm not recommending this system, however...

From: Jim Arnold

I've used the both the Soloist and the Soloaid. The Soloist won't catch upside-down falls, so it's sort of scary on long, hard routes. The Soloaid is great for aid climbing because it will catch inverted falls, but it requires one hand to feed so it's not a good solution for harder freeclimbing.

From: Roadkill

I reviewed and torture-tested the Silent Partner this winter for a midwestern climbing magazine. Two factors lessen the SP's ability to lock in cold conditions: (1) the clove-hitch not locking around the device (drum) itself; (2) the locking mechanism freezing up.

I found 1 to be a minimal, if even existing, problem, because the SP uses a girth hitch that slips a bit before it locks. There is enough slippage when the device locks that even a frozen rope instantly thawed and locked. I froze two ropes, 10.5 mm, one dry-treated, one not, in my freezer, and used them on the device. Both locked fine, albeit with a bit more slip than normal. In essence, even a soaked and frozen rope will still cinch tight around the drum.

#2 is a real concern, because the SP is sealed with rubber gasgets and contains a mechanism that could freeze. I found it presented no problems to 15 degrees (F), in relatively "dry" winter conditions, but would be wary of using it in ANY "wet" winter conditions. For winter climbing I plan to use my Soloist, for it has worked quite well through 10 years of winter climbing.

As for the dreaded inability to capture an upside down fall (the Soloist), I've only had one true upside down fall with the device, and with back-up knots, you're still going to get caught eventually. Rig the Soloist on an overhanging route that is short and experiment with the angle it requires to unlock--it's a pretty signifigant angle.

Technique

From: Nathan

These guys make the Silent partner and Soloist. Download the manuals. Good reading.

Wren Industries

The next 2 links are how to make the "Death Modification" to the Gri- Gri.

Gri-Gri to Soloist Modification

How to Modify a Gri-Gri for Soloing (Note: this page is no longer available.)

This is some whacked method of using a figure 8 that I couldn't figure out. Looks real dangerous and strange.

Self-belaying methods in rock climbing

From: Todd Mummert

I rope solo a lot and will try to give a brief description of the practice and quite a few cautions. To answer your questions though: no, you don't need to know aiding though some of the gear skills could come in handy if you get stuck. I'm willing to go into much more detail in person.

OK..so it ended up not being brief, but I don't want to give the impression that rope-soloing is not without its risks.

The general idea is that you have a extremely solid anchor at the base. Tie one end of your lead (dynamic) rope to this anchor. The lead line is attached to your body in a variety of different ways which I will describe in only vague terms to prevent someone trying this with only a poorly written description to start from. I generally use either a soloist or modified gri-gri, though have also used a clove hitch in the past. The soloist and gri-gri are attached between my sit harness and a chest harness to keep them oriented in an appropriate direction for easier rope feeding. As you climb, place gear as you normally do; clipping the lead rope in between yourself and the bottom anchor. If using the clove hitch method, you will need to adjust the knot periodically to allow yourself more rope on which to continue leading. The soloist or gri-gri will feed automatically. If you fall, the devices *should* lock up and arrest your fall. When you reach the top, or an intermediate anchor point, setup a bomber belay, tie the free end of the rope to it and rappel down the lead line. If the route doesn't traverse or overhang to much you can clean on the way down, else clip the rope back into the gear above you as descend past it. At the bottom, you can then ascend the climb as if you were top-rope soloing or just jug the line. If this is just the first pitch, repeat using your top anchor as the anchor for the next pitch (it is multidirectional and bombproof, right?).

Cautions:

You should be extremely confident of your rope work and gear skills. Your anchors not only have to be capable of handling a serious fall, you don't get the opportunity to go back down and check them after you've fallen on them so you have to be sure they can handle multiple falls without shifting.

Tie backup knots. In case the devices fail to grab or something interferes with your clove hitch, having backup knots tied on the free end of your lead line can keep you alive. Some people will tie a backup knot 10-20' feet out from the device and clip this knot into their harness. You can also tie these backup knots into the line before you leave the ground and just untie them as you reach them.

Falls tend to be longer than they would be with a good belayer. There is more slack that builds up in the system. With the clove hitch system you will fall twice the distance to your last piece, plus the amount of lead slack you had when you tied the clove hitch, plus rope stretch. If using a device, it can slip a bit before locking up.

If using a modified gri-gri or soloist, beware of their failure modes. They will not catch an upside down fall as the cam will never be engaged as the climber falls. For this reason, choose routes carefully (try to avoid heel hooking or high-stepping where you might come off backwards). Also, these devices may not feed smoothly when traversing and you may need to feed some slack in advance or while climbing.

With the free-feeding devices, the weight of the rope below you may cause your rope to feed through the device until it encounters the next backup knot or *worst case* the entire rope feeds through your device. This generally only happens on long routes as you climb more than 2/3 (or so) of your rope length. I'll tie some light perlon prussics to my placed *multidirectional* gear to take some of the rope weight off. The idea being that this light line will snap if I fall. You could clove-hitch your lead line as necessary though this increases your resultant fall factor.

The modified gri-gri may have a failure mode where it can cut the rope. I haven't heard of it happening, know many people that have climbed hundreds of vertical miles using this device without it happening, but I can see how it could theoretically happen. There is information on this failure mode in rec.climbing (via http://groups.google.com) and the gri-gri cutout can be made to reduce this possibility.

Well, that seems like a lot of drawbacks. The advantages: being scared while on the sharp end with a partner pales in comparison to rope-soloing in the middle of nowhere with a 30 foot fall staring you in the face. Ok, maybe only I consider that an advantage... I can climb on my own schedule, without the logistical problems of finding a partner. I can setup top-rope-solo problems and work them without a belayer being bored all afternoon. I tend to choose routes which don't traverse too much, are dead vertical (falling and hitting a ledge, and rolling off is another way to end up falling over backwards), and have solid anchor setups at the base (I prefer big healthy trees, though a good crack systems works well too). I'm less concerned with someone untie'ing my rope from a tree than removing (stealing) pieces of my belay anchor since there is noone on the ground to watch.

From: Nate, 7/26/2002

self belay with gri gri? how?

1. Fix rope to bomber, multidirectional anchor.

2. Make an Alpine Butterfly knot 4 feet from the anchor knot, attach a Yates Screamer with locking carabiners to the anchor and the Alpine Butterfly knot. This will minimize the load placed on your anchor, but is still backed up to the main anchor in case of failure.

3. Tie into the other end of the rope.

4. Thread rope near the anchor into GriGri as you would for belaying someone with the rope to the anchor coming out of the "climber" side.

5. Clip GriGri to your harness' belay loop.

6. Clip one or two HMS biners to your harness.

7. Stuff your end of rope into a small backpack that you will carry and tie backup knots on these every 20' or so (use clove hitches which are easier to release one handed).

8. Continue stuffing remaining rope/backups into a small backpack until you have about 20' of rope remaining.

7. Climb.

From: Joseph Healy

Define "Yosemite Rope Solo" technique, please.

[I originally saw this technique in 1975 in Boulder Mountaneering sitting on the floor reading a book titled, I believe, "Big Wall Climbing" [It was a thick hard cover and had a lot of rather nice drawings illustrating techniques vs. photos], and this roped solo method was called the "YRS" (do any of you other old guys that are from Yosemite recall any such thing? Coming from Illinois, I pretty much took anything I discovered / learned / read / overheard west of the Mississippi as gospel...). Anyway, the next day I provided some fabulously hilarious entertainment to the locals climbing at Castle Rock while I tried to figure it all out on a roof there. But the next day I did the Bastille Crack and was off and running with it from that point forward and have always loved the serenity of it once the fear dissapates into bliss after a pitch or two...]

1) Tie a figure eight at a rope's mid-point (I use a 65m, 10.5mm rope).

2) Coil half the rope and put it over your shoulder with the the trailing rope and figure eight behind you (I usually have it over my right shoulder draping on my left side and my rack on my right).

3) Clip a locking biener w/ the gate down and out on the right side of your your waist belt, and clip the figure eight into it. (see harness note at bottom of post...).

4) Clip six more regular bieners down and out on your waist belt between the locking biener and the normal front rope tie in point.

5) Starting at the mid-point figure eight, tie a figure eight every 15 feet or so and clip each one into successive bieners along side the first locking one. You should end up with a figure eight in the end of the rope clipped into to the a second locking biener next to your normal front rope tie-in point. You will now have about eight big loops of rope coming off the front right of your harness.

6) Set a bomber anchor holding an upward pull and clip the end figure eight loop (the one on the end of the rope on the first biener next to your normal rope tie-in point).

7) Start climbing placing pro and clipping it normally, dropping figure eight knots off your harness as you go (make sure the gate is locked on that last one!). [Don't clip the figure eight knots into your pro, but do make sure a knot is above a piece of pro it the rope will allow it.]

8) When you are down (up) to the locking beiner you're at the rope's mid-point. Set a good downward (or better, a bi-directional up/down) anchor and clip yourself into it with a sling or daisy chain. Remove the mid-point figure eight off the locking biener and clip it into your anchor.

9) Uncoil the half a rope you have over your shoulder, throw it down and rap back to the beginning of the pitch.

10) Clean the bottom anchor, clip the figure eight that was on the anchor onto the locking biener next to your normal front rope tie-in point.

11) Second the pitch cleaning and re-racking as normal, and reclipping the figure eight knots back onto the bieners on your waist harness.

12) When you get back up to your high-point anchor, clip in with a sling or daisy chain, recoil the half rope you just rapped on and put it back over your shoulder (or leave it hanging, up to you...), take the rope's mid-point figure eight off the high point anchor in front of you and put it back on the right-most locking biener.

Go back up to 6[.5]) and repeat steps 6-12 until you are at the top.

It seems unwieldy and strange at first, but after a pitch or two I get pretty comfortable with it all and rarely, if ever, get things tangled up. I've been doing it reliably for 22 years and the system uses no mechanical devices save for carabieners. Because there are no belays I can usually climb a route in about 1/2 - 2/3's the time of a two-person team even though I climb the pitches twice.

Over the years I've looked at every mechanical soloing device / technique I came across(except Silent Partner 'til the other day) and never liked the look or feel of any of them and so always just used the YRS. After hearing others' enthusiasm for the Silent Partner I went and looked at it and other than being a tad big I think I will probably get one and start using it as it as I think it would be a lot cleaner a system on the whole.

Harness setup note:

You have to have a harness set up some how to do this, as you need to have 8 carabieners hanging off you waist harness w/ the gates down and out (and one of them locking). Metolius custom made one up for me a while back that has 8 super tape loops sown vertically around the front right of the harness. These loops wrap completely around the waist belt with a short loop to clip a carabiener in coming off the bottom edge of the waist belt. Before that I used a harness with a piece of one inch webbing that tied in front on the waist loop, went around the right to the back tie point, with a couple of tacks in the middle (sort of like extended gear loops, but these lay flat on the waist harness and don't droop off it).

From: Dave Condit

If someone could give me the basic solo aid system using the clove hitch method, that would help me out

Basically, the system is this:

1. Place an anchor at the base of the pitch to handle an upwards pull.

2. From the anchor, pull up a little slack & attach to your harness with a clove hitch on a large locking biner.

3. Pull up some more slack & attach to your harness with a figure eight and another locking biner (back-up knot).

4. Place a piece in the rock & aid up to waist level.

5. Clip rope to piece, making sure that the piece is between your clove hitch connection & the anchor.

6. Repeat steps 4 & 5, feeding out more rope from the clove hitch as you gain altitude. Tie back-up knots every 15 feet or so (or whatever makes you comfortable) to catch you just in case the clove hitch fails.

7. Once at the top, fix the lead line to the top anchor.

8. To clean the pitch, you can either do it on rappel or rap the haul line & clean it as you normally would if you were seconding the pitch.

If you are hauling, you'll probably have to do a mini-haul to release the bag from the bottom anchor (loop a bight of rope through a biner a little higher up, haul the weight of the bag off the anchor, unclip the bag from the anchor, and then slowly lower the weight of the bag back onto the haul line).

There are quicker methods for solo hauling (i.e. fifi hook & prussick method), but they are more dangerous...I would stick to the slower, safer way for now.

There's nothing wrong with using the clove hitch method, people have been doing it for years. Just remember the logic...the rope runs from a bottom anchor, through your protection, to your clove hitch tie-in (a clove hitch is used because it allows you to feed rope easily as you move up with out having to untie). Remember to ALWAYS USE A BACK-UP KNOT.

Note: this answer was taken from The Greenspun Mountaineering Forum

See also:

Solo-Climbing Tool: Modified GriGri by Ulrich Prinz
Himmelsleiter - The Art of Solo Climbing
Google Groups: Silent Partner: 2nd-ing your pitch
Google Groups: Solo
Climerware for info on rapping with a Silent Partner
The Silent Partner Rigged Correctly on Kathy Blanchard's Purple Pages
How do I top-rope self-belay? on Tradgirl
What should I use to cushion my fall? / How can I self-belay on my home wall? on Tradgirl

Advanced Topics: Page 1 2 3

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