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Climbing FAQ
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IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER:
Trusting your life to something you read on the
internet is just plain stupid. Get corroboration from a more reliable
source, use your common sense, don't get yourself killed, and don't come
crying to us if you do.
All bolting questions [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Greg Barnes, ASCA
You FA folks - use ONLY stainless steel bolts, damnit!! And don't tell
a climbing bum like me that you can't afford it. Stainless Rawls -
Adventure 16, Fixe, Mountain Gear, others sell them, let alone all the
stainless wedge-bolts...and your friends at the climbing shops can order
them. No excuses! Except of course - "this new route is just an ego trip
that no one will bother climbing in 20 years." If it's worth hacking a
hole in the rock, it's worth doing it RIGHT.
Ethics
Environmental Nut Placements & Removeable Bolts
From: Jim
The Environmental Nut Placement.
For anyone not familiar with the concept.. without becoming to
political or patronising. Is based on a metal tube, with a diameter
which could accept a nut 3. The tube sits flush with the rock and has a
tapered entrance. A nut three is pushed in vertically and then twisted
through 90 degrees to enable the device to lock in position. The idea
being it is as safe as a bolt but without the aesthetic disadvantages
of a bolt.
From: Roger Florensa
I think the main dilema is to drill or not to drill. But once you have
decided the first, put a fucking bolt or better a ring on the hole. As Mr
Sweet says, an environmental nut placement is called a crack.
From: Andy Gale
Calling this thing an "environmental" nut
placement is a total misnomer. There is absolutely no environmental
difference between a bolt and this silly tube thing. both of them are a
drilled hole. One could argue that there is an aesthetic difference.
But the visual impact of bolts is just not that great. And if the
hangers are painted rock-color there is virtually no visual impact.
From: David Henderson
So what's the problem with an ENP? It's simply not strong enough. At 6
KN, it's a lot weaker than a modern bolt -- a lot weaker. If you take
repeated falls on a #3 Rock, that item is going to weaken very quickly
and soon break. Then you would have a real environmental mess: A climber
smashed over the rocks
So why would anyone prefer an ENP to a bolt? Because the inventor has
stuck the "Environmental" label on it? We're not eco-cretins. There are
serious environmental issues in the wilderness, and the debate over
bolting is trivial in comparison.
From: Aaron Rough, 4/21/2002
How is RB different than a normal expansion
bolt as far as damaging limestone is concerned?
Removable Bolts are indeed inserted into predrilled holes but there are
considerable differences. They basically work on the same principle as a
slider nut.
#1: The bolt holes are left open thus exposing them to weathering which in
effect widdens/distorts the holes after just a few seasons due to the softer
and often seeping Limestone. Many of the holes need to be redrilled due to
clacification in the hole, but this in turn "reams out" the uncalcified
sections of the holes. In turn the hole becomes bigger eventually rendered
usuelss. Now of course this is finally determined when either the RB won't
came or it pulls on someone.
#2: The holes are only drilled a max of .5 - 1" deep. This is the problem
as
the tension of a fall is transfered to the surface of the rock, which is the
weakest of course being the longest exposed to weathering. Granite, which
is
alot more solid in matrix, can probably handle the forces of a leader fall
over
the course of 1/2 or 1 inch in depth. Limestone however is too soft and
often
plate fractures around the hole creating an ugly scar and potentially
creating
a ground fall if only 1 or 2 holes are filled.
#3) If the holes are drilled deeper than 1/2 - 1 inch, you run the serious
risk
of not being able to pull the suckers back out, especially if loaded. Thats
a
pricy permanent piece of gear, around $50, and is ALOT more unsightly than a
camouflaged bolt/hanger.
From: Nate, 9/19/2002
I hope people who are interested in this gadget know that they destroy open
holes in the rock through repeated use, rendering them useless. This was
well proven back when people carried #3 copperheads around to use in 3/8"
drilled holes on aid climbs. "If you drill it, fill it" is the current
motto. The best way to deal with the above issue is to clean out the hole
and place a new bolt into it. In other words - for emergency use only, IMO.
From: John Byrnes
Why not just use a removable bolt?
'cause nuts are cheaper and lots of people are carrying them
already.
The real reason is that the holes can't be found quickly unless
they are circled in day-glow paint. In addition, the holes
get plugged by various means, and break under load.
See also
Climbing with the ENP
Bolt Wars - to bolt or not to bolt, to chop or not to chop
From: Lucky
Why does one climber have to disrespect the style of another .
Bouldering ,sport climbing, Trad, tope ropeing,Alpine, ice, I do it all and
its all climbing.
I was once told there was only two rules in climbing :don't lie about your
accomplishments, don't manufacture holds.If you think your style of climbing
is better than another climbers You're just full of your self, after all
climbing is just for fun .Just say no to braggers ,posers ,climbers with an
attitude.
From: Steve, 5/2/2002
People have different reasons for climbing. Some like the pure
physical challenge, some like the connection with nature, some like
the danger/adrenaline, some like the technical aspects of placing
gear, some like the endurance needed, etc. Actually most people are
into all of the above they just are more into some than others (and
what they're in the mood for that day). No one type of climbing is
better than the other, it's just what you're into.
From: Brutus of Wyde
The community will never come to a consensus until all the
old f@rts die off, and all the hard-pipe-swinging-coalition
members are incarcerated.
From: Benjamin Joseph Faber
Brutus is right, consensus will never be reached. A lynch mob is something
that reaches consensus. For all you people with "high" hopes, we're
still chopping and you'll never take us alive.
From: John Byrnes
Yes, the JBF lynch mob. Doing what they think is right regardless
of what others think and unwilling to compromise or respect the
rights of others. I suppose you're the Grand Wizard, eh?
From: Cameron McPherson Smith
Go to Smith Rock some time, and see what freedom to bolt has
dredged up: an ugly scene of shiny bolts marching up crags all visible
from the trail. I don't blame this guy for trying to protect his
crag. Some day when the sport climbiong fad has passed,
I will enjoy going up there with a crowbar for some removal parties.
From: John Byrnes
Just curious -- are you planning to free solo for the chop party?
Otherwise, what would you use to protect yourself? Perhaps you could
"rap-chop"?
From: JKVawter
I regret to say that even at Tahquitz, a bastion of the trad ethic (which at
Tahquitz and Suicide meant that bolts were used only when no other protection was
available, and drilled on the lead), new bolted routes are alarmingly common.
Bored locals, I'm guessing, are bolting blank slabs and squeezing routes in too
close together. The face between Human Fright and Fingertrip is beginning to look
like a grid. At some point, when looking at a new line you have to ask not just
can it be climbed, but should it be bolted. How many new bolted face routes can
Tahquitz support before there is a line of bolts every five feet?
From: Bob Ollerton
On the other hand, there are probably relatively few climbers (of
bolted routes) that haven't occasionally wished for at least one more bolt.
For example, say that you're climbing a steep slab and come accross a tiny
overhang with a 15 year old Lost Arrow driven upward into it that protects you
from a splatter-fall if you blow the crux 10 feet above. God, I hate it when
that happens! However, I don't think it's safe to call for replacing these
pins with bolts because of the over-bolting problem.
From: blyslv
I had an awesome opportunity to talk to a
first ascentionist in Southern Arizona. He puts up <most> of his bolted
routes on lead, hanging from hooks and such. That is incredible, at
times soul-sapping work, but the result are a whole slew of routes (few
of which are in any guidebooks) that are clean, aesthetic and safe.
They are on rock that otherwise wouldn't be climbed except by those few,
(and there are a few) who belive that you shouldn't have the "right",
(whatever that means) to climb there unless you're willing to die.
That's silly. His routes are works of art, just as I'm sure that many
of the routes at Smith are as well. To my mind , chopping bolts is akin
to burning books. As Heinrich Heine said in the late 1800s "This is but
the begining, when books are burned, in the end people will burn."
From: EJ Werner
chopping bolts leaves as much of if not more of a scar on the rock than
just leaving them. all it does is generate a "revenge cycle." jeff's
got the right idea to try and find the person who did it and maybe
educate them about what they're doing. 'course this will probably be
met by a closed mind and some kind of "go regulate somebody else, i'm a
climber and i'll do what i want."
if you've got to remove bolts, try the ASCA tricks and actually clean
up. clean holes are better than chiseled stubs. filled holes are
probably better than clean holes, but i haven't seen the results of
filling attempts, so can't judge.
the most important thing is to provide proper feedback to people who
need it in a way that they can listen to and understand. normally
that's not in a public forum with highly judgmental language.
From: Bob Ollerton
When you take a drill to rock, you are making an irrevocable statement,
literally "etched in stone," for all time, about how to improve a
climbing area. Make no mistake, you will be judged for this. As
climbers, we are all caretakers, and the harshest judgements that
climbers make are reserved for those that fail as caretakers. If you
fail at this, it will probably be the only thing that anyone ever
remembers about you as a climber.
See also
Battle of the bolt by Carol Kauder
Reducing the visual impact of bolt hangers and other fixed gear by Reese Martin
Reliability & Testing
Sandstone
From: Brutus of Wyde
Preface: My answer assumes that you are referring to Rawl 5-piece
bolts at least 3/8" in diameter and 3" deep. If you are referring to
Rawl splitshaft 1.25" x 1/4", run far, far away.
In hard sandstone, the shear strength of drilled angle placements is
generally quite good, but the pullout strength is low.
In very soft sandstone, wide glue-in U-type anchors have been reported
to have good results, better than either drilled angles or other
typical modern single-shaft bolts.
On sandstone climbs, I tend to trust neither drilled angles nor bolts.
Test everything, assume nothing, and be as alert as if you are walking
into a minefield.
Soft Sandstone Rock Anchor Testing at Swinburne on SACIN
Marine Environments (SCC)
Start with: The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
From: Ken Leiden
In the Railay Beach area, many of the original expansion bolts from the early 90s have
been replaced with glue-ins with the hopes that the epoxy would keep out the corrosive
elements. From what I heard, this has only been somewhat successful.
From: John Byrnes
This "hope" was based on a faulty assumption by the Thai locals. There
was even an article published in Rock and Ice (or Climbing?) about their
suspicions. They thought the bolts were breaking due to "acid" caused
by
rotting vegetation. This is not the case, it's SCC.
From: Jacek Maselko
So far all of the areas mentioned have been in tropical climates.
Here in southeast Alaska, we have a number of bolted sea cliffs. Some of them you can only
access at low tide. In the 5+ years since we equiped them with ss bolts, we haven't heard of
any incidents.
Sounds like we should be worried as well?!
From: David Harris
Is it only in limestone that these problems occur (Squamish rock is
granite)? And how big a factor is temperature? Is marine-related bolt
failure only an issue in tropical (or semi-tropical) areas?
From: John Byrnes
Temperature is a large factor. However, the steels that are
used for the bolts are also a large factor, as is how much
salt spray actually reaches the cliff and how long it
usually takes to dry out.
If the bolts are not stainless steel, then you're only looking
at oxidation and galvanic corrosions (since granite is unlikely
to be involved). These can be easily seen, and are understood
by most climbers.
Also, since granite is essentially non-porous (compared to
limestone), they bolts should stay drier.
From: JKVawter
How about Cornwall, Gogarth and other British sea cliffs? Never heard of this
kind of rapid corrosion there either.
From: John Byrnes
I know of at least one case of SCC in Britan being investigated
by the UIAA.
From: Jim Ingram
How did you come to the conclusion that titanium is the answer to all
our problems. It's certainly not (in general) completely free from the
problem of SSC and under the right conditions can suffer from hydrogen
embrittlement. Did you do any testing to assess the susceptability of
various alloys to SSC in simulated tropical coastal environments. I'm a
little suprised that there isn't a suitable grade of stainless steel (+
aging treatments??).
From: Mike Yukish
Titanium is widely used in the chemical processing industry for its
anti-corrosive properties. It is known to be a good choice for sea water
applications. Hydrogen embrittlement is only an issue at higher temps (180+
F) and with access to atomic hydrogen, which probably isn't an issue here.
Crevice corrosion could be. Titanium comes in two major groups of alloys,
designed for specific properties: aerospace alloys and corrosion resistant
alloys. I imagine Ushba is using one of the latter. The only real negatives
is that it costs a lot and is relatively hard to work with. The Russians
are good at working with it; they even make whole submarines out of the
stuff. Here's more info.
New Uses for Titanium in the Chemical Industry
From: Tim Marsh
Many of the sport-climbing areas in Australia use similarly shaped
stainless glue-ins. In most instances, a 'channel' is drilled in the
rock below the bolt hole leading back towards the hole, enabling the
'head' of the bolt to recess slightly. The excess glue that oozes out is
used to sort of grout the bottom of the bolt head into the rock.
From: John Byrnes
This is unnecessary and in fact could be worse if salt spray
is an issue. The channel/glue/bolt produces a crevice, where
salt spray can linger and promote SCC. Rule of thumb: no
crevices.
It probably does improve torsional strength in some cases,
but it seems to me that all glue-ins have plenty of strength.
See also:
need up-to-date info on PhraNang in Thailand on Google Groups
General and Miscellaneous
From: Greg Barnes
These sorts of bolts (Rawl wedge bolt) will not work for hard rock, as the threads are not
strong enough. For certain soft rock they might work, but they have to be
torqued very specifically, and since they are not available in stainless,
it would be dumb to use them anywhere anyway.
Our conclusion is simple: the new Wedge-Bolts are not appropriate for any
climbing use.
From: Greg Barnes
Ed Leeper is once again reiterating the warning of the danger present
in his recalled hangers. Between 1962 and 1984, 95,000 of them were
sold, and at this time, almost one in a hundred is prone to sudden
catastrophic failure - even if has never once been weighted. Copy
hangers that were homemade are even more likely to suddenly break,
even with only body weight, let alone a fall. This appears to be a
form of stress corrosion cracking, but he is not sure.
The rate of failure increases if the hanger is visibly 'dished' out by
an over-tightened bolt.
The full text of the updated warning is on the ASCA info page
as a small PDF file.
If you know of any cases, or see any out climbing, where a Leeper
hanger (not the bolt) broke, please call Ed immediately at (303)
442-3773.
From: Greg Barnes
Despite their (continued) popularity with some wall climbers, 1/4" bolts
suck even new.
But as always it depends on the rock - a perfect hole in perfect granite
and they last a while. Still, even new they can break in a fall.
For aid bolt ladders, just use 3/8" stainless steel bolts. Fixe wedge
bolts are killer and you don't have to drill the hole quite as deep as the
(very expensive) stainless steel Rawls. Of course in your situation,
where power drills are legal, it doesn't much matter as far as depth.
To keep it interesting, while safe, replace the correct bolts to prevent
decking or hitting something, but then consider just pulling and NOT
replacing some of the old 1/4" bolts. Then you need a thin hook and it
keeps it exciting (and good practice for the next time you're on a wall
where a bolt pulled on a ladder). Of course better check with everyone to
make sure they don't get mad about "chopping" the bolt (while leaving the
hole to be hooked isn't really chopping with modern aid - you're not
filling the hole). But even the Nose has bolts close to failure on bolt
ladders, and if it pulls you're hosed without a hook that fits the old
hole.
But basically, shouldn't be placing 1/4" bolts these days, except if
you're hand drilling 5.11 slab on lead from stance, then you ought to
immediately rap and replace with 3/8".
Leeper Hanger Warning - Removal Urged by Ed Leeper
How-to
From: Nate Beckwith
Making the bolt stick to the rock is the easy part, kiddo. Weak or
poorly placed bolts is NOT the problem. It's about bolt proliferation -
and frankly, in my 14 years of climbing - I think it's curiuous little
fraternal recruits such as yourself that jam in most of the hardware.
Let's not even begin to discuss the ego-clouded ethical decisions you
little woodchucks make.
From: Greg Barnes
Usually drill bits last a lot longer power drilling, but on super-hard
granite like Calaveras Dome, they wear just as quickly. Likewise for hand
drilling, the super-tough rock found in the best of the best Yosemite
granite (e.g. Good Book, Rostrum) will break the bits more quickly (and
take up to twice as long to drill with a fresh bit).
The major tip for extending bit life is quick lighter blows as opposed to
really going at it.
How to Bolt Rock Climbing Routes on AAA Climbing
Equipment and Supplies
Drills
From: Iain McTaggart
Bosch drills are for a bit of DIY around the house. Hilti's are industrial,
much more powerful and much better.
From: Michael Riches
I have always used the little Milwaukee 12 volt cordless
hammerdrill...light weight and with the turbo batteries and a little bit of
"injunouity" you can set up a real good battery pack that is compatible with
your vehicles charging system (Or battery)....buttt, alasss...all good
things must come to an end and it bought the farm one day...
My new one??? Why it's the new Milwaukee 18 volt SDS unit...So far, I am
really impressed with it...but the down sides are...it is SDS, so you have
to buy the more expensive SDS drill bits. It's bigger and that means heavier
and it is 18 volt. I will be getting the power port adapter for my truck,
but this is another added expense that was not necessary with the 12 volt
system and using your vehicles battery in a pinch is out...
From: Gimpy
The standard is 24v SDS rotary hammers. The SDS chuck system is used in the
bigger hammers; the bits pop in and out and you don't have to worry about
them loosening.
Hilti has a new line of tools out, including a 36v which is supposed to
weigh no more than the 24v. Don't know anyone who's tried these very exp.
($1K+) tools. No doubt they are the cadillacs of the bunch. Their bits are
supposed to be shit, by the way; I'm ordering some.
I have a Bosch (the "Annihilator"). After two years of good service, I just
had a repair done - the drill seemed ok but stopped penetrating. They
replaced a pin in the chuck area, $54 p/l, haven't tested it yet. Check
where the nearest repair facility is; my dealer had to send mine out of
state. Took about 10 days.
The Bosch will cost you a little under $600, I think. Bosch has a 30-day
return policy no questions asked - can't beat that! - and a good 1-year
warranty.
The only other 24v SDS I know of is the DeWalt which an electrical
contractor friend says is a good tool, for under $400 I think. I almost
bought one on clearance at home depot. Snazzy yellow.
You probably get what you pay for. Check the warranties, cuz none of these
tools is designed for the abuse they get on the rocks. Also check the
amp/hours on the battery, the more the better, and think about a spare
battery. You'll run em down fast (regardless of what the dealer tells you)
Hangers
From: ClimbMex
Aluminum is too soft, even the best heat treated alloys lack sufficient
strength. Strength of homemade aluminum hangers can be measured in the
hundreds, not thousands of pounds.Then there is the problem of galvanic
corrosion between the dissimilar metals of bolt and hanger. Personal
experience: I once stepped on an aluminum hanger (top rope anchor) at Mt.
Woodson. It broke in half. Do yourself and all subsequent parties a favor and
don't be a cheapskate. Stainless steel is the way to go.
From: Nathan Sweet
SMC makes/made some lighter weight hangers. And as far as the
price....you can spend $8.00 to see a bad climbing (falling) movie, so
the price of a couple GOOD hangers is your price of admission. And the
next guy will see Metolius or some other recognised brand stamped on
them and say a prayer of thanks to your unknown soul
Mechanical Bolts and Adhesive Bolts by Climbing Magazine
Supplier Sites
Climb Tech
See Also
The American Safe Climbing Association
How do I prevent injury to the leader on overhanging routes by providing a dynamic belay? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Jay Tanzman
Vertical to overhanging route, leader falls above a
bolt, belayer is using a Grigri or locks off an ATC and braces for
impact. Leader gets swung into the rock by centripital force. Angular
momentum is conserved. Falling climber breaks and or dislocates, foot,
toe, ankle, or hip.
From: Chris Harmston
I would say that this is the single most common climbing accident I have
heard of and witnessed. Luckily I have never been on the receiving end
since almost all my partners weigh at least 40 pounds less than I
do. This is a tough problem. Climbers get scared and say "watch
me!!!" This is a signal to the belayer that the person is in trouble
and about to whip. They naturally tend to take in slack, sit back, and
lock off the belay device. This is dangerous because it slams the
climber into the wall and increases the forces on the equipment. Those
who are aware of this problem solve it by increasing the dynamics of the
belay. Allowing controlled rope slippage or jumping up certainly help
but are actually very difficult to master and execute at the right
time. Furthermore, most of these types of accidents occur low on a
route where the chances of hitting the ground are higher and the belayer
needs to reel in slack. It is still possible to reel in slack and give
a more dynamic belay. This can be acomplished (difficult advanced
technique here so be carefull) by utilizing a more open angle on the
break hand with respect to the device. This will decrease the
stoping force of the device and allow more slippage and lower
forces. Obviously, this is not applicable to auto locking and high
friction belay devices. This technique works well with the ATC once
mastered. I recommend practicing this in a controlled situation (its up
to you to figure out how to do that). My personal comment to climbers
is to never tell the belayer to "watch me" while climbing (OK I can't
always do that because I get gripped too). Tell them to keep a short
sport loop out once you get far enough up that you won't deck out. Tell
them not to hold the rope in the lock off position but to be ready for a
fall. These comments need to be qualfied somewhat too. Heavy climbers
with light weight belayers need a more locked off belay with potential
back up anchoring. Light climbers with a heavy belayer need a more
dynamic belay. Everytime you climb you have to judge the people you are
with, the climb you are going to do, and your own physical condition
and adjust your techniques and plans accordingly.
From: Hugh McNeil
I was taught to give dynamic belays in two ways:
1) jump as the leader is about to land on the rope (ie at the point just before
the belayer feels the fall);
and
2) bring the brake hand towards the belay device while the fall is impacting the
rope.
In the latter, the force of the fall is being spread over a slightly longer time,
making it easier on the leader.
In the former, obviously not suitable for your average "trad, tied into the rock
belay," the leader will impact the rope a little less forcefully.
From: James
And you're coming across as quite the nut job yourself. Trying to slide
your break hand towards the belay device during a fall? How precise is
that movement?
He's not nuts, I've done it hundreds of times (more than I can count) with an
ATC. As long as you keep a solid grip on the brake line and the angle of the
rope out of the ATC down it's in VERY high control. If you have used an ATC
you know that you don't have to have your hand right next to it to stop a
fall. In fact it holds a fall just as well if your hand is 3 feet away if you
have the rope angled down enough to put enough friction on the ATC. When you
move your hand up (just reduce the downward pressure slightly, not the angle -
you don't actually move your hand up) it reduces friction fractionally (your
grip hasn't changed whatsoever) and the rope slips through the device (not your
hand) softening the fall. NEVER have I felt that I was risking losing control.
As soon as your hand nears the ATC, you stop the uppward motion and presto the
climber stops and you don't pinch your hand as you assumed earlier. This won't
give enough of a "dynamic belay" to keep the climber from cracking his/her
cranium on a roof edge that they are falling into - only soften the fall a
bit. To make them clear the roof then you will need to let the rope slide
though your hand and then you really begin risking loosing control of the rope.
From: Jay Tanzman
When I'm at or above my bolt on vertical to overhanging terrain, I want
slack in the rope _and_ a dynamic belay. If there is no slack in the
rope when the leader falls, the fall will immediately be accelerated by
tension in the rope. If the fall occurs just above the bolt, the fall
will be short, and the belayer will not have time to jump. Without
slack in the rope, the result will be a short, but wrenching fall. Even
though the theoretical fall factor might be low, the fact that the
leader is falling under tension from the rope, will result in a hard,
potentially injurious crash into the wall.
However, even if the fall occurs high enough above the bolt that the
belayer has time to jump, slack is still beneficial because the rope
will not become taut until the leader has fallen further below the
bolt. This results in less horizontal force from rope tension.
Relatedly, another situation that requires slack in the rope is when the
leader has clipped protection after turning the lip of a roof or
climbing over a bulge. In such a case, if the leader falls, he needs to
be dropped safely below the roof or the bulge to avoid being decapitated
(or at least having his teeth knocked out).
Hopefully, it is obvious that when it would cause the leader to deck
that the belayer should not leave slack in the rope.
As to the timing of the jump, which someone questioned: The technique
is to already have your knees bent and to jump just as you feel the
leader's weight come onto the rope. You don't anticipate this
happening, you go with it. In fact, a fairly intuitive dynamic belay
technique is to keep your knees bent and your weight forward and just to
let yourself be pulled forward a step or two as the leader weights the
rope.
It should go without saying that some common sense needs to be exercised
in judging whether these techniques are appropriate. If the belayer is
considerably lighter than the leader, then just standing below the first
protection piece and locking off the belay device will provide a dynamic
belay because the belayer will be pulled up when the leader falls. If
the ground is uneven, it might be dnagerous for the belayer to be pulled
forward.
Finally, I'll reiterate Lord Slime's opinion from another thread that,
unless a gri-gri is being used, an alternative -- in his opinion, a
superior alternative -- to jumping is to let rope slide through the ATC.
From: Greg Daughtry
You don't need to time
it at all. You simply be prepared,and light on your feet, possibly slightly
crouched. You let the tension on the rope provide the tactile feedback and
let it take you up in the air, jumping lightly.
So in more detail, let's consider the timing cases:
1) jumping exactly conincident with intial tension on the rope
- this would require perfect timing and provides optimal dynamic
belay.
2) jumping slightly prior to tension on the rope (belayer rising).
- not quite as good as #1, but still better than static
3) jumping way prior to tension (belayer falling)
- you aren't doing anyone any favors.
So perhaps jumping isn't the right word for what you are doing. It's more
like being crouched, letting yourself get picked up by the rope.
Effectively all you need to do, is present the tensioned rope with something
less than your body weight. Your feet don't even have to leave the ground.
You can easily practice this by doing dynamic squats, kind of like jumping,
but you don't let your feet leave the ground. It's better than nothing. As
you gain more experience, and feel for the tension in the rope, you can jump
harder, letting the tension take you farther.
Secondary to this discussion is the issue of not jumping, but rather paying
out extra slack by the belayer. While this helps with the short-roping
problem, the belayer is allowed to free-fall farther before tension is felt
on the rope. Therefore, they feel a harder catch, because they have
accelerated more before being caught by the rope. Of course you can combine
this with jumping, to allevieate some of that impact force.
There are reasons why you might want to employ one, the other, or neither.
There are no maxims in our world.
From: Theresa Ho
For me, since I'm usually lighter than my partners, I don't worry too much
about "jumping", but am prepared when the rope starts to yank me around.
I guess the heavier you are relative to your partner the more you might
want to intentionally jump or move forward to soften the fall.
From: Larry Lindeman
Both slack in the system and a dynamic belay will reduce the force
with which a climber will strike the wall. IMO, a dynamic belay is
better because it dissipates more energy during the fall. This means
that, if everything is done properly, the leader will not fall as far
with a dynamic belay compared to slack in the system, with the same
force hitting the wall. Or, the climber will hit the wall with less
force with a dynamic belay compared to slack in the system when
falling the smae distance.
The dynamic belay has the added benefit of a "softer" catch.
From: Cratticus
It is also important to remember that a dynamic belay results in a longer fall
for the leader. If there is a danger of falling on a ledge or a part of the
rock that is not 90 degrees or more then a dynamic belay is a bad choice.
Your best bet is climbing with a partner that has good judgement and can
decide when a dynamic belay is appropriate and when it's not. it is important
to remember that a true dynamic belay is a relatively difficult skill. There
is not a lot of time to react and most people, including experienced climbers,
will oftern screw up when attempting a belay technique that they are not
familiar with.
How do I make a harness out of webbing or rope? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: C. Craig
Possibly the most responsible advice I would give is to look up the
instructions in Freedom of the Hills.
Harness improvisation seems like a lost art.
From: D. Baleria
Another very good source for this is Jerry Cinnamon's Climbing Rock and Ice:
Learning the Vertical Dance, 1994, Rugged Mountain Press, $19.95 paperback.
Chapter 4 on Harnesses, page 48, shows very well how to tie a swami belt with
leg loops, using 17-feet of 1" tubular webbing. You basically make two leg
loops with bights of webbing in the center using overhand knots, then wrap the
webbing around the waist several times until you finish with a water know in
front, backed up with overhand knots.
From: Mike Harris
1. Get a 15 foot piece of 1 inch web (I think that's the length)
2. Double it so it looks like an upside down U.
3. put the middle of the webbing at crotch level. Leave the tails behind
you, between your legs.
4. Grab one tail, pull it behind your leg (where your harness leg loops
sit), and pass it through the doubled over section.
5. Then pass it back around your waist (see the picture.)
6. Repeat for the other leg.
7. Wrap excess sling around your waist. Each tail will be wound in the
opposite direction.
8. Tie with the death knot of your choice.
Sorry, I didn't have time to do a better picture.
Also, a double runner can be used as an emergency rappel harness, but don't
lead on it! Put the sling around your waist, reach between your legs and
grab one strand. Connect the two ends and the crotch strand with a
carabiner.
From: bct110
Tie two fixed loops (into a 20' piece of webbing) approx six inches apart,
using overhand knots. adjust the size of the loops so they fit snugly around
the thigh. The loops are tied into the sling "off center" so the remaining
ends are different lengths (short end approx 4ft)
Slip the loops over the feet w/ the knots to the front. Make 1 complete wrap
around the waist w/ the short end (WRAPPING TO THE OUTSIDE) and hold it in
place on the hip. Keep the webbing flat, free of twists when wrapping.
Make 2-3 wraps around the waist w/ the long end in the opposite direction
(WRAPPING TO THE OUTSIDE) binding down on the short end to hold it in place.
The long end should finish up on the same side as the short end.
Grasping both ends, adjust the waist wraps to a snug fit. Tie off the ends
with a water knot.
That is right from my military mountaineering manual... but some first hand
tips will make it more clear.
First off you want your water knot to be on your NON dominant side...so these
are instructions for a person who rapells with a right hand brake hand.
(reverse for lefties)
place the webbing to your left. pick up one end w/ your right hand and mark
off about two arms lengths. This should be the place of your first loop (this
loop goes on your left leg). using the LONG end measure about a hand length
and make your second loop. (for your right leg.) make sure knots for the leg
loops are on the front the thighs. (you should now be standing in the two loops
with the short end of the webbing coming from the knot on your left thigh and
the long end from the knot on the right thigh)
Take the short end up an to the left and back around your waist (it should end
up on your left hip). Now take the long end up and to the right around your
waist as many times as it'll go and still reach your left hip. make sure you
make it as tight around your waist as you can because when you tie the water
knot there'll be some slack and it'll loosen up.
clip or tie around ALL waist loops and around the part between leg loops.
From: Joel Greggian
Something similar to the already mentioned methods, but I've found to be a
bit more comfortable, and possibly a bit stronger/safer:
1. Again, get a peice of webbing about 15-20 feet in length
2. tie an overhand knot about 5 feet into it, creating the first leg hole
3. about 4-6 inches from that knot, tie another one for the next leg hole
4. take the long end, and go behind your body, starting on the same side as
that peice of webbing
5. wrap it under the inner-thigh strap on that side, and go back around your
back again
6. wrap it under the inner-thigh strap on the other side
7. bring the short end around your back and the long end across the front of
your body and tie the two ends together with a water knot backed up with an
overhand/fishermen's knot, or however you want to tie them off (just be sure
it's tight)
8. Get another peice of webbing and tie it around your waist as a safety
loop
9. You wouldn't really want to put a biner through the front, as all the
webbing will put multiple stress points on in (hence the reason real
harnesses have belay loops). Instead tie a rewoven figure eight knot through
all 4 (or 5?) peices of webbing in the front.
This harness is actually pretty comfortable, and if you're lucky enough to
have some kind of padding to put under the thighs, even better. I find this
method a bit safer, as you're using more webbing in a continuous motion,
therefore increasing the strength, and your leg knots will be
self-tightening (the slack goes aroun the back, creating tension in the
knot)
From: Craig Adkins
Just make a loop of webbing about 6ft circumference,put it in
back of you, bring three bights forward, one between the legs,
one on the right side of the waist and one on the left side,
clip the three bights together , adjust to snugness. Its great
for " assisted downclimbing"/ "semi-rapelling" when solo
peak bagging and something every climber should know
just in case.....
From: George Houghton
25' of flat webbing
1. Find the middle of the webbing and pull it between your legs from
the back to the front.
2. Take the tails and start wrapping them around your body. One goes
clockwise and the other counter clockwise. I typically would pass the
tail once through the loop between my legs to hold it in place.
3. When the webbing is almost used tie the tails together using two
water knots.
4. Clip all together with the biner.
Basically you have a swami belt with two leg loops. I climbed on this
my first season. Trust me on this one, you don't want to take a real
leader fall on this harness. IT HURTS!
From: Phil Sidel
Someone already posted instructions for a diaper-harness. Works, but not
IMHO the best. And that one shouldn't take 25 feet of sling.
I prefer -
16 to 25 feet of sling depending on your size. 16 feet for a Lynn Hill
25 for a linebacker. I'm 5'10" w/ a 34" waist and 20' is fine for me.
I tie two leg loops each formed by tying an over-hand on a bight. Each knot
is about 3" on one side or the other of the center of the sling, so there
is a 6" sling betweent them (wider for heavier climbers).
Then, AFTER STEPPING INTO AND ADJUSTING THE LEG-LOOPS (SNUG AROUND THE
THIGHS), I pull each end around my body - the one from the right leg around
towards the right; the one from the left leg around to the left.
I wind
them around my body as often as they will go 'til there's an overlap
of one-to-three feet (preferably about 2 feet). The winding should be
tight - so I have to suck my wind and stomach in. Then I must knot them.
A water knot is safest, but it is soooo hard to get it tight that I use
:::: a square knot backed up by close, tight double fisherman's.
Make sure there is an adequate (2" or more loose end on each side).
The biner then goes over the waist loops and around the loop that
linkes the 2 leg loops.
From: Rob
I dont
recommend using it for climbing--save your balls the anguish and spring the
money for a real harness. The first time you take a fall on a harness made
from tubular webbing you will regret it.
From: nuetron
It's a useful skill to have, as is a bowline-
on-a-coil, which isn't comfortable, but might
just save your life some day.
See also:
Making Your Own Harness (added 5/24/02)
How do I use Tiblocs to protect against the second falling while simul-climbing? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Brutus of Wyde, 9/28/1999
I just read about Han's use of the Tiblock. Interesting. Brings to mind
"Use of this device, not in accordance with the instructions, voids
all warranties either expressed or implied, and may result in severe
injury or death."
That being said, a look at the Tiblock and a few other autolocking
devices would seem to suggest rope damage could result from
connection to a piece of pro as described.
From: Rob Milne, 5/27/2001
We use the tri-blocs for protection while simul climbing. (You need to
hook them in the right way) But they are very useful for making sure a
second fall won't pull the leader off.
Both climbers are tied in as normal. The leader just keeps climbing,
putting triblocs on whatever protection he places.
The second is tied in the normal way. Instead of belaying the leader, he
climbs at about the same speed (and at the same time) so that there is 2-4
feet of slack of rope in front of him. as the leader moves up, he moves
up. If the leader falls, he gets stopped when the rope comes tight on the
waist of the second. If the second falls, the downward pull will cause on
of the triblocs to 'catch', stopping the second.
Of course, to amend an old saying: the leader never falls and the second
never falls 8-)
From: Brady Robinson, 10/17/1999
Anyhow, here's the beta.
Note: I've been climbing for a long time and have a lot of experience.
Simul climbing is an inherently "hair ball" activity, but a really fun
and fast one. Don't try this at home unless you know what you're doing.
1: Go buy two of the new Petzl Tiblocs and have a buddy buy one or two
more as well. (No, I have nothing to gain from this.) The Ropeman
doesn't work nearly as well, so don't bother.
2: Bring more gear and quickdraws than you normally would and get ready
to run it out a bit. Do a nice long route that isn't too hard for you.
(IE Don't fall if you can help it.)
3: One guy starts leading, with all the gear, while the second belays on
a Gri-Gri.
4: Here's the trick. After going for 100-150 ft, the leader stops,
places a BOMBER piece, and clips the rope through the biner on the piece,
only with a Tibloc attatched to hold a DOWNWARD pull. The piece is
ideally multi-directional (bolt, two pieces in opposition, etc.), but
doesn't absolutely have to be, since the Tibloc adds almost no friction
to the system. Now the rope runs up through the piece like normal, but a
tug on the rope below the piece locks the Tibloc.
6: Leader and second climb at the same time. If the second blows it and
falls, the Tibloc catches the fall and doesn't pull the leader off for a
horror show simul-fall. If the leader falls, the rope comes tight on the
second and catches the leader's fall like normal, thanks to the Gri-gri.
If the second is climbing faster, he can pull rope in on the Gri-gri. If
he's climbing slower, he can let line out. If things get a bit too
intense, the second can clip into a piece of gear and belay like normal
until the leader gets through a hairy section.
7: Before the second reaches the first Tibloc, the leader places a
second Tibloc on another bomber piece. If the second reaches the Tibloc
first, he calls, "I'm at the Tibloc," stops, and belays until the leader
find a good place for another Tibloc, then starts simuling again.
8: Keep going until you run out of gear, run out of Tiblocs, or get to
the top in record speed!
Too good to be true? Maybe, but I don't think it will go the way of the
modified Gri-gri solo belay method of rec.climbing threads long past. A
friend (Evan Howe) of mine did some drop tests on the Tibloc in a gym,
using himself as the weight(!). He says it'll hold a factor one. You'd
really have to blow it as the second to put a factor one fall on the rope
below the Tibloc. If you're good enough to be using this system, you
should have the reflexes to grab the rope if you slip, or at least keep
most of the slack out of the line with the Gri-gri.
It reality, the leader has a blast leading a 300-600 ft pitch while the
second is busy cleaning gear and trying to keep the rope fairly tight,
while giving the leader slack when he needs it. Communication and
patience are key, as they are with most things. My partner and I haven't
taken a fall on this system yet, nor do I plan to. But as the leader,
running it out a bit with a second climbing unseen below you, it adds an
amount of piece of mind. It would be ok to make a mistake and fall. But
you still get to climb like Peter Croft and Hans and Dean and all those
bad-ass guys you read about. Jimmy Chin and I used this method while
climbing new routes on some relatively unknown spires in the Charakusa
valley in Pakistan this summer. It saved us hours.
From: Greg Daughtry, 9/30/1999
You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT expect the tibloc to belay BOTH climbers. The
tibloc would ONLY protect the second. Indirectly it protects the leader by
preventing the leader from having to arrest the fall of the second.
If the leader falls, the rope slides free through the tibloc and the second
will have to arrest the fall.
From: Bill Wright, 9/29/1999
I would not use a Tibloc for simul-climbing in this manner. I think
they are not suited to the task. For a Tibloc to work, it must be
actively weighted by something clipped into its holes. If something is
not weighting the Tibloc, then the rope could conceivably move up AND
down through it. It is possible that some of the teeth of the Tibloc
will catch the sheath of the rope, but it is not guaranteed since
nothing is pressing the rope against the teeth (this function is
performed by weighting the Tiblic via clipping into the holes. This
will be confusing to those who haven't seen this device.
From: The Undercling, 4/6/2000
Perhaps some of us recall the TR here of someone
doing Half Dome in a day with Hans guiding him this last summer, and Hans had
rigged a Tibloc to prevent back-feeding in his speedclimbing rig. This
Tibloc also shredded the sheath of their rope when the second loaded it, but
in this case damaged it even more severely. I think these devices are
interesting, deadly bitchy little things, that probably should not be out
in the general market, as they require too much to work safely.
From: Greg Daughtry, 9/29/1999
The tibloc was clipped with a locking D into a fixed pin. I started jugging
about 100' below the tibloc and the sheath ripped when I was about 25' below
it.
That doesn't sound much like simul-climbing to me. You were jugging a
supposed fixed line, but the line was fixed via a tibloc. Of course the
thing will shred your rope... Only because you were bouncing very sharp
teeth on the same spot on the rope a thousand times.
I agree maybe you shouldn't jug off a rope fixed to a tibloc, but I still
have not heard a reason NOT to use it while simul-climbing. It still sounds
safe to me in that application. Once one person has to stop climbing and
start jugging, you aren't simul-climbing any more.
From: Dingus Milktoast, 9/30/1999
I don't get it. Your theory is that a bunch of small bounces will (or perhaps
could) shred a rope, but one HUGE bounce (say the 2nd falls with 5 feet of slack
in the rope) is no problemo? Personally, if the device has even a remote chance
of shredding a rope, it's not for me (in this application).
From: Ted Compton, 9/30/1999
Once again, I think the TIBLOC and its toothed design are
being blamed when it is very likely the way that the system
was rigged that caused the sheath failure. The way the
system was rigged (with no ballast weight hanging from the
TIBLOC biner) allows the teeth of the TIBLOC to drag
against the rope for a short distance before they fully
engage/bite. This dragging can seriously tear at the
threads of the sheath (read recent threads about not using
the TIBLOC as a rap backup). 30 or 40 iterations of this
"dragging/tearing" (from jugging 75') could forseeably
damage a sheath to the point that body weight could cause
it to fail. On the other hand, 30 or 40 bounces with the
teeth properly "set" in the rope would cause no concern
about rope failure. In fact this is something that I am
sure many of us put our ropes through regularly. Try
hanging from your ascender (in the same spot on the rope)
and working at cleaning a stuck cam. I would guess that
you could generate 50 to 100 "bounces" and some pretty hard
ones if you were getting irate at you partner for loosing
your cam. Anyway, my point is that toothed ascenders are
not slowly destroying all our ropes and that properly
rigged, the TIBLOC won't either.
From: Karl Baba, 10/18/1999
I talked to Hans regarding the Tibloc for simul-climbing and he is
still pretty high on its advantages. He said jugging on it was the
problem during the Half Dome climb (he also said the rope wasn't that
tweaked either) and jugging vulnerability would be a point against
using it to keep the rope snug during aid soloing (especially if your
rappel of the haul line was far enough from the gear that you couldn't
undo the tibloc before jugging to clean.)
From: Bill Wright, 10/19/1999
While Hans was indeed high on these devices for simul-climbing I don't
know if that is still the case. There was a near disaster using these
devices when he set the Half Dome speed record with Jim Herson. Jim
will NOT use Tiblocs for simul-climbing. If you look at how Tibloc's
work, they are not reliable in this context. Tibloc's must be actively
weighted to work properly, otherwise you are relying on the thickness
of the biner to press the rope tightly against the teeth. This is why I
think the active mini-ascenders are a much safer and more reliable way
to go.
From: Michael Riches, 7/27/2001
After playing with the dreaded Tibloc annnnd "trying" to destroy ropes with
it, I am not satisfied that it would cut a rope, even in a heinous
fall...granted the sheath would be pretty well toasted, but from what we
saw, there was very little core damage. One of the things that we did that
somewhat ties in with this, is with the five hundred pound weight full on
the rope, we took a sharp knife and very very carefully cut the rope to see
just how much of the core really was necessary to hold that static load...I
was very surprised at just how little it takes to support that
weight...we're talking shoe lace here...
Soooo...to somewhat skip ahead here, into what I am getting at...the Tibloc,
IMMHO, is probably the best all around choice in protection for
simul-climbing. My reasoning over other devices is that it is very small and
lightweight...you could carry so many more of these versus some other types
of devices. The second will somewhat be on top rope. Even though the leader
is not controlling the amount of slack the second has, the second can, to a
degree and that makes any fall from the second, a fall with very little
slack in the system. With that in mind, the Tibloc would probably not even
score the sheath. Depending on the type of rope you use, the Tibloc will
feed fairly smoothly, or at least as smooth as any other type of device
(prussic included...). It's small size allows for easy placement and less of
a chance that it will get caught on the surrounding terrain, once it is in
place. It has virtually no moving parts to jamb or screw up and if something
does happen, it is a lot less expensive then most other types of devices
(except the prussic...) to abandon and replace...
Granted, nothing may be perfect in this respect or application, but I think
that this is really the only reason I would seriously use the Tibloc...not
that I don't have a few and play with them all of the time, but to me, they
are useless in any type of rescue work and they have a lot better
counterparts for most everything else that you might want to use them for...
From: Bill Wright, 8/1/2001
A Tibloc will not work unless something is actively
pressing the rope into the teeth. It works as an ascender because you
actually weight the Tibloc and that presses it against the rope.
Weighting the rope, as you would in a simul-climbing fall, does not
press the Tibloc against the rope. It might work, but it might not.
I think the best device is a micro-ascender that is spring loaded to
press up against the rope. I've used these before and even taking test
falls on them simulating a simul-climbing fall with excellent results
and no damage to the rope. Try this will a Tibloc. In general, it
won't work. If you have a really fat rope, it might work okay. Try it.
If you're going to bet your life on it - and that's what you're doing
if the second falls while simul-climbing, you better be confident with
it. Test it with a back-up rope on you and test the spring-loaded
micro-ascender. Test with the diameter of ropes that you'd use in
these circumstances.
I know Hans Florine thinks Tiblocs are safe for simul-climbing, but
that fact is he rarely ever uses this technique (maybe only a couple
of times in his life) and other speed climbers will not use them.
Also, Hans has never tested a second falling on a Tibloc.
I'm posting not because I'm an expert on this - I'm not as I haven't
tested a fall on a Tibloc. I'm posting as a call for caution because I
don't understand how the thing would even work without an active force
to press the teeth of the Tibloc against the rope. Ropes can freely
move both directions through a Tibloc unless the Tibloc is weighted.
If others have tested this and can post directions on how to make this
work safely, I'd love to hear the details. Tiblocs are great, light
tools for ascending and I'd love to use them for this purpose, but I
don't believe they are safe for protecting the leader while
simul-climbing.
See also:
Prussic/Tibloc revisited...An MRA vacation - tests for sheath damage, 6/25/2001
Advanced Topics: Page 1 2 3
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