Does this route go clean? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: John R. Black
Usually "hammerless" and "clean" are kept distinct so people looking for clean
walls (because they don't own and don't known how to use pitons) won't get
a big nasty surprise. So I'd prefer to keep the distinction.
Both hammerless and clean ascents preserve the rock and are therefore preferred
over nailing.
Zion
From: Rex Pieper
All Zion trade routes have gone clean! Leave your
hammer at home.
From: Jut re: Desert Shield
This route goes totally clean with little problem. I took pins and a hammer
as I thought doing this clean would require all kinds of tricks that weren't
in my bag. Well, the tricks aren't that tricky - just takes some little
nuts (or big ones as the case my be). Simply need off set nuts (lots in the
small size), cam hooks, a talon and a bat hook and some slider nuts with
your SZWA (Standard Zion Wall Arsenal). When you get up there, you won't
want to hammer anyway - nasty scars. The belays are all bomber on the
headwall with nice new bolts and the first half of the bolt ladder has been
rebolted, as well. The second have is standard Zion shit. The final pitch
is not C2+ but more like C1+ and needs a new bolt job. Both headwall
pitches are C3 with the first being more scary due to a bad fall and the
latter maybe being slightly more technical. The first 5 pitches are
cruiser. There is mank webbing at the belays that need to be replaced.
Rapping the route is lots of fun....
From: Eric Coomer re: Lunar Ecstasy
NBD on the clean. Bring a lot of offsets- not just the brass but the
big ones as well. double or triple set of aliens to yellow.
We only had one ea of the #5 #6 brass offset and had to back clean a
whole lot... would have really liked having 2-3 each in this size
range.
From: David Kramp re: Angel's Landing
I did this route in October. It does go clean but it would be a little
dicy. We used 2 pins (1 knifeblade and 1 angle) on the 7th pitch, after
you make the 5.8 traverse.
From: Kenneth Wagenknecht re: Peyote Dreams
When I went to climb Peyote Dreams I left
the hammer in the bag. As far as I know that's still a nailing route,
but we did some fairly thought provoking clean aid in the first couple
of pitches before being stormed off.
From: John Middendorf re: Tricks of the Trade
I have heard that there are only 3 piton placements remaining, and that
one each baby angle, one medium/thick Lost Arrow, and a few beaks does the
trick for the aid pitch after the pendulum.
Yosemite
From: Matt
Just off the top
of my head---- Lurking Fear, Zodiac, The Shield, NA Wall, The Prow,
Skull Queen, West Face (Leaning Tower), West Face of El Cap, Direct NW
face of Half Dome are some routes that go clean.
From: John Black re: Leaning Tower
The Leaning Tower is done clean by 99.9% of the
parties who do it and is comparable to, say, the South Face of the Column,
the Nose, the Salathe, or the reg rte on Half Dome in aid difficulty.
From: Ben Craft re: Lost Arrow
Sure you did Lost Arrow clean, so did I.
But how would you get past the RURP placement if it ever pulls?
From: antsn37 re: the Prow
prow beta: lots of small stuff!! 2-3 sets of everything. hb offsets a must!
can sleep 2-3 on pitsh 3. can sleeep at 8, 3 people easy. lots of fixed
copper, may have to hook on one or two if they are blown. can go "clean"
relatively easy.
From: Charlie re: the Prow
This route is 100% clean (we brought neither heads nor pitons, but we
would have been SOL if some of the fixed head ladders had blown). Didn't
use hooks, didn't bring a cheat stick (I'm 6'1.5"), and you don't need
"tons of little aliens" as many people insist. Small to medium nuts are
the mainstay for this route, plus about a set and a half of cams up to #3
did us fine ( a few small aliens might save some time on tricky nut
placements, though). You may want to bring more cams for ease of mind, but
resist the urge to bring more gear than you need.
From: Bill Folks re: Triple Direct
I am looking for information on climbing Triple Direct, particularly the
section between Mamoth Terraces, and Camp 4. Does it go clean?
Yes. The aid on this route is all very easy. I've heard of people wasting a
lot of time on the traversing pitches, but if you follow the topo and don't
get off route, no problem.
From: Evan Bigall re: Half Dome Direct NWF
Jim and I did it clean last fall with no problems. The only place where you
could have problems is the top of pitch 11. For us this was fixed, but it was
old rurps tied off with 4 mil cord. Sort of sketchy. I'd bring one hammer and
a couple of rurps/(short thin)blades just in case you need to replace something
here.
From: Bill Folk re: Leaning Tower
Do we need iron
No.
or will it go clean?
Yes.
Rack specifics?
2 of everything to #3 camalot, and a #4 may come in handy in a couple of
spots. A hook or two. A couple of heads just in case. I used a red Lowe
Ball on the 5th pitch, but something else would probably work.
From: Eric Coomer
Just some input on the "clean" wall routes. A fair amount of these walls
DEPEND on copious fixed gear to go clean. You'd be smart to bury a hammer
and some pins in the BOTTOM of the haul bag for routes such as Lurking
Fear, and the Prow. I know that I have a penchant for pulling as much
fixed gear as I can when I climb. Others do to. Also, some of these clean
ascents relied on extensive use of Cheater Sticks(named that way for
a reason...?) so if you're not in to using those except on reachy bolt
ladders put up by Kor or Sutton or Burton then you best have some pins
stashed.
Finally, I've seen the shield mentioned a few times, this route has gone
hammerless but NOT clean i.e. lots of hand placed pins. The recent
NA clean ascent(I do believe this was clean in the usual respect) ups
the rating to C4.
Before anyone jumps all over me, I am NOT advocating nailing on any of
these routes, I'm just stating the realities that some routes depend on
certain things to make them go clean- fixed gear, cheater stick, BIG
balls(or the equivalent female term for the ladies out there). There
are some routes- The Nose, NW face of 1/2 Dome etc that do not depend
on these same assumptions.
Elsewhere
From: Wealse re: the Prow, Cathedral, New Hampshire
Take 2 racks, 2 ropes, it all goes clean! The locals will shoot you if
you add/remove anything. A #2 or 3 RP is useful for the crux roof. If you
want to cut your time in half, bring a stick clip (unless you find this
"cheating"). Done it twice this season, once in pouring rain.
What harness should I buy for big walls? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Jim Cormier
Yates Shield, hands down.
From: Dave Condit
I've tried several brands & models and currently use a Yates Shield. It works
well and has all the necessary features.
The things i like in a big wall harness:
-dropable leg loops (for pinching one in a pinch)
Just remember, just because it's a big wall harness doesn't mean that it will
be comforable after several hours of hanging. I have permanent marks on my
hips from "comfy" wall harnesses.
From: Robert Fonda
The Shield is a good harness. I would also suggest you check out the
Wild Things Raptor. They may have renamed it to the Wall Harness. Not
sure. I love the thing. Incredibly durable, will last forever. Very
comfortable. Before you take anyones advice, go check out a couple of
stores, try different ones on. Any store worth it's salt will have a
piece of webbing or daisy chain set up so you can hang from the
harness for a while. That should at least give you an idea of how
comfortable the harness is.
From: Fritz Lowery
I'm a big fan of my Yates El Cap: fat swami with 6 gear loops (two
inverted), huge and tough haul loop, droppable leg loops, really
slick closure system that allows for significant adjustment (warm
clothes, big meals, etc.). I'm still a big wall aspirant, but it's
plush for long trad routes, too.
From: Scott Ghiz
Yates Big Wall Swami with Fish adjustable leg loops... Outstanding combo
for a fat guy like me.
From: Amanda Tarr
How about recomendations for a wall harness that is comfortable for women. My
legs would really appreciate the help.
I have a Yates which works fine for me. I think there's enough adjustments on
most wall harnesses that they dont really need to be made in male/female
models. I've never used another one, except for my old Choinard Bod harness
which I wore up 7 walls or something before I couldn't take it anymore.
From: Chris Weaver
Wild Things has a wall harness that's worth checking out also. It has all
the features you want - 5 staggered-height gear loops, full stregth haul
loop, wide waist belt, leg loops with buckle closure and droppable via
clips. I bought one recently and have been happy with its performance so
far. It cost approximately $80.
From: Rex Pieper
I'll put in my vote for the Wild Things Wall Harness...I've taken mine up
several walls and have zero gripes...I especially like the extra lumbar
support it has built in, as well as the variable width of the waistbelt.
The belt is wider than any harness out there, and it then tapers down
to a mere inch in the front. It also features adjustable/removable leg
loops, unlike many other models w/ fixed dimension leg loops.
From: Mark Blanchard
The best I've used is the one Fish makes. Two piece, lots of padding,
great gear loops, full strength haul loop.... and best of all no buckle!!
From: Staff@ClimberOnline
FISH Wall Swami & Leg Loops combo is a great value @ $76 or so. It has all
the necessary components for wall climbing (wide, padded waist belt - full
strength back loop - quick release, drop leg loops - durable gear loops,
sized for holding a hammer - no had plastic components that dig into you at
hanging belays or at bivys). Yates also makes great wall harnesses (harness
& Swami/leg loops combo). Yates is a bit more money, around $108 for either
version.
From: Christian Brooks
I have the Fish Wall harness. It is pretty comfortable, but I must say that
getting the tie in webbing untied can be a pain in the ass. Granted, you are
wearing the harness for a long time so its not that big of an issue. It could
use a few more gear loops (it has 5) for better organization.
From: Will Ladewig
Misty's Cadillac and Yates BigWall are the two I would recommend. Cadillac
is also a good free climber's harness as well.
From: Karl Baba
I thought my Misty Cadillac was decent until I got my Yates Shield. The
Yates has more supportive belts and leg loops. The Misty looks good but
the fur isn't firm enough to really support you.
From: Mike
I work as an industrial climber. Sometimes we hang in our harness for
up to 12 hour a day. We wear the Petzel Navaho. Singing Rock and
Troll also make similar harnesses. For comfort and durability you
can't beat them- weight, on the other hand, may be a bit of a problem
(maybe not).
See also:
Which harness should I buy? on Tradgirl
What should I wear for shoes while aiding? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Bill Folk, 10/24/1999
Nothing is going to offer good free
climbing, comfortable aiding and jugging, light weight, and durability all in
the same package. Figure out what is most important to you, and accept that
you'll have to sacrifice in the other areas.
From: Dingus Milktoast, 2/31/2002
Route dependent of course. I recommend cheap ass tennis shoes with the plastic
reinforcement under the arch, like the 30 dollar Asics I'm wearing right now.
Wear climbing shoes if the pitch goes free and learn to love the pain.
You can also go the approach shoe route. I know lots who have done it.
Wall boots? The people I know who have them are either wannabe's with more money
than time or way-serious wall climbers who shred them in a season or two.
I do have a pair of old climbing shoes that are too big for me... Boreal Fires,
the originals. I have a balsa wood foot bed in them that can't be deformed. I
can stand in aiders for hours in them without pain. They climb like Clydesdales
though.
My point is... you can make wall boots out of almost anything, logging boots,
mountaineering boots, whatever, especially if you don't anticipate a lot of free
climbing. Trango's and their ilk are great shoes and will serve you well, but
they're very expensive especially if you only end up doing a wall or three. The
cheap bastard in me advises you to go the cheap route too!
From: Bikewrkr, 1/22/1998
I use a pair of hiking boots, that I have reinforced at the toe w/ shoe
goo, duct tape, and bicycle inner tubes, and the ocasional piece of chewing
gum. I do carry a pair of rock shoes if the route has free sections.
From: Mojavewind, 1/31/1998
I made my own Aid climbing shoes. I got one
of the Vans shows the skateboarders use. Not the one that thrashs up easy. I
get the suede kind. They have the rubber rands on the front. Then, I go out
and get the 5.10 sole repair. I have a decent climbing shoes and a good aid
shoes. I had mine for about 2 years and it still good. It is far cheaper than
buying a wall boot.
From: Melissa, 7/16/2002
I compromised and started climbing in my 5.10 approach shoes. The work
pretty well for the occasion friction move and are pretty sticky and flexible
for shoving into cracks wide enough to accept them. If you have weak feet,
you might not find them stiff enough. However, they are a hell of a lot
stiffer than slippers. It thrashes them, as you noted. Mine have been through
quite a bit (~1 yr old), and, although they look a little ragged, they are
still holding up. Some seam grip on the rands can help extend their life.
If you climb a couple of walls a month, you might want discount this strategy,
but a decent pair of approach shoes should at least get you through several
walls and many more approaches if you are a weekend warrior with a little
bit of vacation time such as myself.
For pitches with "real" free-climbing, I bring pull-on slippers up (Mocasyms)
and change while hanging from a good piece before the free climbing starts
to avoid standing in aiders w/ them as long as possible. Most approach shoes
have a clip-in loop on them, so you can attach them to your harness.
From: MadDog, 7/16/2002
Approach shoes. Currently a pair of 5.10 Mountain Masters. They have done
about 30 pitches of aid and the toe is worn through, even though I've covered
the toe rand repeatedly with Freesole. This stuff will extend the life of the
toe of the shoe considerably. If you expect to be freeing something fairly
hard, clip some slippers on your harness.
From: Dingus Milktoast, 7/16/2002
Get an oversized pair of rock boots. I used old school Fires, but any
"bootish" shoe should do.
Put one of those cork or superfeet footbeds in. Viola!
I have cork footbeds in mine. Can stand in aiders all day long and still
rock climb when needed. The real rock shoe toe rand holds up better and
makes that V thing you do with your feet much easier to sustain. I've also
found that jugging is easier on vertical to less than vertical rock because
the toes don't slip around. If the free climbing becomes sustained, take out
the footbeds and cinch em down. Some routes have too much or too hard free
climbing and require really tight rock shoes. In that case I wear tennis
shoes for the aid work mostly, cause I'm too cheap to buy approach shoes
anymore.
The thing I wouldn't do is spend 200+ on some wall boots.
From: Ed, 7/17/2002
I have a pair of 5.10 Huecos that I bought about 1/2 a size to large. Bad
news at the time, but as I've been trying to find the same balance you're
looking for, I bought a 1/2 sole, firm plastic insert foot support (I think
they were SuperFeet, but the 1/2 sole version) and shoved those in there. I
haven't done a wall in them yet but I found them comfortable enough to wear
for an entire pitch that involved mixed climbing. Not sure I'd want to
stand in these all day, but if you know the next pitch you're leading has
mixed free & aid, I'd rather change into these at the belay then try to
fenagle on a pair mid-route. They give me enough support around the middle
of the foot where the aiders will be applying pressure, but give me the
flexibility to climb nearly at my limit (which is rather limited in itself)
when I step out of the aiders. The 1/2 size too big ends up being just big
enough with the supports stuffed in the shoe.
From: Bill Folk, 10/24/1999
I ran into another guy who wore Moccasyms for free climbing, and
put on oversized running shoes over them for aiding and jugging; I might give
that a try.
From: Howard Young, 2/22/2002
I climbed Zodiac in a pair of El Caps. They are too big and clunky do free
more than 5.7 with any confidence, but are nicely padded and compfortable
for aid. I remember they were nice at the hanging belays cause they were so
stiff that the toes could rest against the rock without squishing my feet.
They are really warm too, so might not be good in hot weather. Also the
rubber rand started to delaminate after one big climb too. I used to have a
pair of Boulders that were my favorite wall shoe. Really sticky and great
for freeclimbing anything up to 5.8 and supportive enough for long days in
the aiders. Wish I bought another pair of those instead of the El Caps.
From: Cornelius, 2/21/2002
the old lasportiva boulders. first generation is vastly superior to
the second. i'v soloed 5.9 in boulders, and also taken them up several
walls. they're a light aid shoe, so i wouldn't take them up on
anything super hard super long, but i took em up on the shield, and
they did alright. they're in my mind, the perfect combo between a free
aid shoe.
From: Rex Pieper, 1/23/1998
I've been using the Five Ten Guide Tennie for a while now and
I'm quite happy with it. My pair has been up 4 walls and show very little
signs of wear in the toe-rand (a common spot for blowouts). By getting
them a little snug, I can tighten them up and freeclimb up to 5.9, or
loosen them and be comfortable for days on end in my aiders.
How do I jug (ascend the rope)? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Rex Pieper, 8/29/1997
My version of jugging free-hanging lines is as follows:
Attach right jumar to rope as the upper jug. It should be close enough
when you are hanging on it (via daisy attached to harness) so that your
right arm still has a slight bend to it (Mark this daisy loop with a piece
of tape for quick setup). I think this is one of your mistakes, your top
jumar is too far away.
Bottom jumar's daisy length is less important, but should at least be long
enough to slide bottom jumar up to meet top jumar at full extention. Clip
set of aiders to bottom jumar.
Don't clip chest harness into the system. This makes it harder to move up
the top jumar and just makes things much more awkward.
Movement is as follows:
Slide top jumar to full extention of daisy clip-in length. Hang from it.
Slide up bottom jumar to meet top one, with feet in aiders. Stand in aiders
(I usually just have my left leg in the aiders since it is much less
awkward to move up the right arm while standing with the left leg, than
trying to "frog" your way into the standing position). Slide top jumar up
again. Hang. Repeat. Don't forget to backtie every 15-20 feet.
From: Chris Weaver, 10/27/1997
I've done this with two different methods. The first one I tried was one in
which I had one aider per ascender, with the upper ascender clipped to the
length of my reach, and the other one clipped so that when I stood in the
upper aider, the lower ascender would go just up to the upper ascender then
come tight on the daisy. I then selected the proper rungs for each foot so
that I could raise my feet as though I was walking up stairs (lowest rung
on top aider, 2nd or 3rd step in lower aider I think). Then off I went,
looking as though I were on a Versaclimber machine. On less than
overhanging rock, this was really fast - something like 40 feet in about
30-45 seconds. Also note: it's much faster to jug this way if you tie a
knot in the foot loops you'll be using so that your feet don't slip out as
easily. The first time I did this I found that I spent a lot of time
putting my feet back in the stirrups after they came out.
The other method I used, which wasn't as fast but would probably work
better on overhanging stuff, was the following: Both aiders on lower
ascender, daisied in close. No aider on upper ascender, just daisied in to
the length of my reach. With this method, you let your harness take ALL of
the weight for most of the time. Basically, you sit down on the lower
daisy, push the top ascender up until you can just transfer your weight to
that daisy. Weight the top daisy and lift up the lower ascender. With this
technique, you are able to stand up with both feet at once, then sit, push
with both feet, sit, etc.
From: Rex Pieper, 5/12/1999
Free hanging jugging doesn't take a lot of arm strength, only a
different technique. Don't make the mistake of rigging your jugs
like you would for slabby pitches.
Instead rig the top one just under arm's reach, bottom one can have
slack in the daisy. Clip aiders to bottom jug. Slide up top jug, hang.
Slide up bottom jug, stand using one or both legs. (Use your legs more
than your arms to gain height.) Repeat.
From: Brutus of Wyde 9/5/1997
For air-jugs, I've found that the top ascender should be shorter than
arm's length away.
Madbolter made some good comments, to which I would add
that I tried using a wooden belay seat in conjunction with the system
Rex described (hang the belay seat from somewhere on the daisy
connected to the top jug) and this makes for a very comfy system for
extended air travel. With some adjustment, I was able to jug almost
as fast as I normally do (i.e. very slow) and arrive at the top of the
fixed lines in much better condition.
From: Bob Ternes, 5/12/1999
You can also try, with daisies on both jugs, putting both aiders on the top
jug for a while. Keep the lower jug pretty tight on your waist, and you can
actually tie the top hole to a chest harness if you so desire. This might be
easier, I can't remember. If you have enough rope out it will slide perfectly
through the lower jug as you stand up on the top jug. It flames out different
muscles, but it works to give you some rest for the others. It actually is
pretty efficient for free hanging jugs, especially those over a rope length.
Also, on such really long jugs (or any jug, really), use your Gri-Gri (my wall
SAVIOR) as your backup knot. It is alot easier to slide, and unlike a knot
between you and the bag, you won't suddenly find yourself starting to pull up
the bag, with down-jugging as your only option. Just make sure that you
actually do *tie in* when you pass the knot. Then, just take the Gri-Gri off,
put it on again above the knot, and yous is money baby! Just rig it correctly.
And don't kill yourself misusing my information.
From: Alan Lindsay, 10/27/1997
I girth hitch the aiders to my foot,
keeps me from stepping out of them as I step up.
From: Mike, 5/12/1999
Well, I'm no El Cap ace, and it might start a flame war, but I have
the jugging method to beat all of you. MadBolter included. I suffer
from crippling tendinitis and was forced to find the most efficient
method for free-air jugging.
The key to fast, easy freehanging jugfests is a device that cavers use
called a "chest box". It is a plate of aluminum, about 2" high and
8" long. Mounted in the middle of the plate is a type of fixed, rigid
pulley called a chest roller. The shell of the roller is bolted to
the aluminum plate, keeping the axle of the roller as close as humanly
possible to your chest, and thus the vertical center of gravity. The
axle of the pulley is a quick-release design that's easy to engage and
disengage from the rope. The chest box is attached to the climber
with a basic chest harness. When not in use, it rides at about the
nipple line. When in use, you cinch it up a bit above the nipple
line. The key to comfort and efficiency is that the plate keeps the
chest sling from compressing your ribcage. This rigidity also keeps
the chest roller quite close to the rope. No sag.
See the awesome caver's book On Rope, second edition, for various
techniques and methods.
I have developed my own method that makes maximum use of common
climbing gear and minimizes caver-specific gear. The only mandatory
cave gear is the chest box. I have an A5 double gear sling. I
removed the chest webbing, threaded it through the chest plate/box,
and put the webbing back into the gear sling. In effect, I integrated
the chest plate with my gear rack.
You set up one jug down at foot level. Clip your aider into the jug
and put your foot in the highest possible step, maybe even the grab
loop. Set up a second jug at knee level. Clip a second aider into
the jug and put your foot in the step that keeps the feet at equal
heights. Clip a piece of 1/4" bungy cord from the top of one jug, run
it up through a spare pulley or biner at the chest level, then back
down to the other jug. The bungy should be in tension when both legs
are straight. The idea is that as you raise a leg to take a step up
the rope, the bungy pulls up the jug for you.
As the rope comes up in front of you, run it through the chest box.
The chest box keeps your torso upright against the rope.
With a sling or daisy, connect yourself to the knee jug. Put a third
jug at face level and clip in to it too. This gives you 2
center-of-gravity connections to the rope.
It's easier and quicker to set up than to describe it.
What you have now set up is the texbook jugging method that cavers
call the "ropewalker".
And it is just that. Properly adjusted, you can now jug up a free
hanging rope with ZERO arm effort. Just push the highest jug up ahead
of you. With each step, you gain maximum height. This method is
deceptively fast, and refreshingly easy on the arm. It is no tougher
than walking up stairs.
You can do the setup with only one foot jug, putting both feet in the
bottom aider step. The result is an "inchworm" effect. It's slower,
but both legs work together.
Here's two resources for the chest box and other cave gear:
On Rope 1, Inc. (423)344-4716
Inner Mountain Outfitters (540)377-2690
Both of these guys are super-knowledgable and happy to help you. I do
not have any commercial affiliation with them. I'm just a satisfied
customer.
What penalties do you pay for using this method? The chest plate will
cost you about $90. It weighs about 5 or 6 ounces.
What benefits do you get? Effortless jugging. Total freedom from
tendon trouble relapse brought on by strenuous, repetitive jugging.
At least twice the speed of the classic climber's method. Doing the
3-man wall method? The guy who jugs up to lead the next pitch will
swear by this rig.
Study the "On Rope" book to get more detail. Like Russ says, practice
your magic on the ground first. Referring to a printout of this post
1700' up El Cap would be bad form.
What are my credentials for giving this advice? I'm a barrel chested,
top heavy, 235 pound (without gear) former weightlifter who loves aid
climbing. I have the worst possible body type for my chosen sport. I
have been forced to make everything about aid climbing as easy as
possible.
This method works.
From: Phil Box, 5/2/2002
I`ve got SRT ascenders and yes I believe they are bomb proof, at a pinch
they can be used as a hammer for getting that nasty piece of stuck pro out.
Even though I`ve got 2 of these wonderful pieces of machinery I now only use
one with a foot loop and cowtail to my harness, I also use in conjunction a
GriGri direct in my belay loop and the rope travels down through the
ascender to the GriGri back up to the SRT ascender to a pulley attached to
the ascender on one of it`s highest gear holes. The beauty of this system is
it effectively allows you to haul yer own fat lard butt on a 3 to 1 haul
system up that rope. One can also quickly go from jugging to rapping with
minimal effort.
Disclaimer, feel free to pick this to pieces as I`ve been fiddling this
thing into submission and I feel quite comfortable using it. It makes
jugging a breeze but don`t take my word for it get out and try it in a safe
environment.
See also:
My First Mini-Epic (a scary jugging story)
What should I use as a backup while jugging? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: Brutus of Wyde, 11/3/1999
Just how often do people have problems with
ascenders popping off or failing?
Once too often.
Is there something about big walls that
seems to make ascenders break?
Break? usually not. Pop off? or get incorrectly re-attached after
repetetively passing pieces?
Try cleaning the fourth or fifth pitch of Tangerine Trip.
From: Eric Coomer, 10/25/2001
Jugs pop; if you're not clipped in to the back-up,
you get the express ride. That's all there is to it.
From: Brutus of Wyde, 10/26/2001
A backup knot tied directly to the harness in the event of ascender
failure (ascender coming completely off the rope) is a standard
big-wall technique that completely bypasses ANY ascender failure
scenario. Tying in with enough of a loop below allows the rope to feed
smoothly without messing with the cam. Tie in short before cleaning
traverses, following pendulums, and every 10 meters or so, other risk
factors not present. The tie-in knot is to be connected to the
harness. Tie in closer when ascending static ropes.
From: Mike, 10/5/1998
Also, with Petzl ascenders and
most other brands, use a biner to clip around the rope and into the
"spare" hole at the top of the ascender. This makes it almost
impossible for the rope to come off accidentally.
From: Nate, 10/25/2001
Personally, I don't use backup knots, but I do clip a biner into that top
hole of the ascender. If you do this, the ascender absolutely will not
come off the rope. My path of the daisy chain goes harness -> bottom biner
of ascender -> loop of slack -> top biner of ascender. So, further, the
ascender could snap in half at the handle and you'd still be attached to the
rope. A Petzle ascender would bend a long ways before snapping, but that's
a different point.
The only time I might use a backup knot is in a higher risk situation, such
as when I have to remove an ascender for cleaning roofs and traverses.
Some people use a gri-gri attached to their belay loop as a backup to the
ascenders. This is pretty slick, too, because when you remove the top
ascender for the roofs and traverses, you're still into 2 points on the
rope, neither of which are going to come off the rope. Gri-gris are great
for this kind of thing - drop an ascender, fall asleep at the belay or
totally screw something up while you are cleaning a roof - and you're backed
up. The gri-gri will take care of letting rope through itself if you set up
everything else up correctly.
BTW, I've seen a Petzle ascender (w/o the top biner) pop right off of a fat
rope like nothing was holding it back. It was early on for me, and nothing
happened, but now I always use that top biner.
On the Great Roof pitch, you have to sort of jug downward for a few feet at
the end of the pitch. My partner clipped the ascender past the piece he was
weighting, where the rope at this point was pointing sort of downward. He
weighted it slightly, and it popped right off the rope. I guess it's just
not intuitive that the ascender could flex so much, and that the rope could
get sandwiched through there, but it happens.
From: David Hill, 10/25/2001
When cleaning a wandering or overhanging pitch,
the second often has to remove the top jumar and place it above a piece.
Having a biner that you removed and replaced every piece would make for a
slooow cleaning job. The ONE time that I have had a jug pop off was
cleaning the last pitch of the leaning tower. Spooky. These cases call for
relatively frequent back up knots on the harness. On a straightforward
pitch, a back up knot every 50 feet or so may suffice. Of, course, it
depends upon personal comfort level...
From: Nate, 10/26/2001
I've done enough jugging to know that having to remove the
top ascender is a common situation. Adding that biner would
cost precious time and aggravation each time.
True - but part of moving efficiently is doing something else to get that
next piece unclipped so that you don't have to remove the top ascender at
all - such as pulling yourself into the rock, lurching, slamming the rope
out of the top piece's biner with your palm, etc. It's been awhile, but I'm
pretty sure I manage without removing the top ascender - most of the time.
Sure, there are times when you unclip that top biner and go for a ways - but
the other piece here is that I usually know the situation well enough to
decide if tying a backup knot is prudent (like when seconding on hooks..) -
but most of the time I don't.
From: Robert Austin, 10/5/1988
i was wondering how one goes about tieing themselves in while jugging fixed
lines..
Assuming the pitch is a full pitch and there is little or no slack available:
1. They don't (not recommended but done more often than you might think). 2.
You can use a gri-gri or prussik configuration as a backup. 3. You can get a
belay from your partner above as you are jugging (providing there IS a
partner above you AND providing he/she has trailed an additional line for you
to tie into). 4. If there IS plenty of slack left, you can do any of the
above or you could tie in short(of course, it's obvious that you'd have to
re-tie quite often as you'd use up the the available slack very quickly in
this situation). Hey, I'm sure there are ALOT of other possibilities. These
are just a few that come to mind in my limited experience.
From: Rex Pieper, 11/1/1999
your jugs should only pop off when jugging a traversing or VERY
steep line clipped in pro. I have never heard of a jug popping off a
vertical line, and i would doubt it would ever happen w/o the jug
breaking
I've never heard of any jugs popping off a vertical line either, but you
sure as hell won't catch me 200 feet off the deck, passing a knot
while hanging from only one jumar! Oh, and BTW, jumars HAVE failed...
some with surprising regularity (take the recalled KONG modular
ascender from 5ish years ago).
Moving w/ a GriGri backup is just as fast as not using anything (same
w/ a prussik backup, but that's more of a pain.) so why would you want
to tempt fate?
From: Geoff Jennings, 10/25/2001
Even better, use a gri-gri for your backup. Beats the shit out of stopping
to tie and untie knots all the time. Doesn't help with the rope feeding
thing, although once you get well into the pitch, the rope will feed itself
pretty well.
From: Karl Baba, 10/26/2001
My experience is that the Gri-Gri back-up rules! No knot needed.
Particularly useful for ascending fixed lines where you oftentimes can't
tie back up knots anyway (like the fixed lines to heart ledges)
From: Andy Gale, 10/26/2001
The gri-gri as a backup absolutely kicks ass. After just a short
distance it self-feeds, thus keeping tension on the rope so the botom
ascender feeds easy. Added bonus you are already set up for rappel if
you should need to switch over. Just unclip those asenders and away you go.
From: Mike, 2/5/2001
I like jugging w/ 2 ascenders and using the grigri as my sliding backup. I
stay tied into the end of the rope, of course, plus I might clip in short
every 50 feet or so just as a last-ditch backup to the grigri. More of a
mental cushion really. It's very convenient because once you have 10 or 20
feet of rope through the grigri, it feeds itself and builds up almost no
slack.
Plus its handy during a "deucy" lowerout. Without the grigri you must have a
good bit of slack between the bottom jug and your backup knot. Otherwise you
will run out of slack and get hung up as you lower out. With the grigri this
is no problem, just let out some slack through it if you come tight against
it. This is where, especially near the end of a pitch, I would clip in short
to the rope perhaps 25 feet below the grigri.
Also consider the efficiency when you belay the leader with the grigri on an
aid pitch. As soon as he fixes the rope, just stay clipped in to the grigri
as normal. You are now completely on belay, ready to get moving, and the
grigri is already in the "jugging backup" mode. This arrangement eliminates
the possibility of you having a brain spasm and finding yourself unclipped.
Believe it, this is quite possible in a clusterflubbed big wall belay,
especially on a ledge.
From: Rex Pieper, 11/2/1999
Any special modifications or will a box stock grigri do the trick?
Nope. No modifications needed.
From: Brutus of Wyde, 10/26/2001
As a general rule, the grigri rocks as a backup. However, it may not
always be the best tool:
1) As noted in other threads, the Grigri may be ineffective on thinner
diameter ropes. I have rapped and jugged on 8.8mm ropes, but I
wouldn't trust a Grigri as my safety backup on one. Knots are knot
known to be diameter-dependent for their function.
2) Following long pendulums, and some unusually intricate and
traversing aid pitches, can sometimes require the ability to fix ones
self into the rope with resistance to both upward and downward forces,
depending on the system used. Especially if you get as confused as I
usually am. Clipping into a knot in the rope is a better option in
this case.
3) When cleaning a pitch in the afternoon on ZM, I let the rope loop
down below me with no backup knots. (I was using the Grigri as my
backup.) I did not have a rope bag. The updrafts blew the rope 50 feet
above me and 75 feet to the side, where it tangled on a flake. 45
minutes of panic and subsequent updrafts were required to free the
rope. If we had not been able to do so, a rescue would have been
required. I came to this conclusion -- in the absence of a rope bag,
one of the most efficient methods of preventing this scenario is to
regularly tie "stacking loops" in the rope, such that a long loop
never develops. Simply tying and retaining subsequent backup knots
accomplishes this, at no extra effort except the tangle of ropes you
trail, which is much better than rescue.
4) The grigri, as has been noted before, can subject to mechanical
failure of the cam action in environments where a lot of chossy crud
is cascading on the second. Backcountry FAs for example. The backup
knot is a better choice in these situations, and in situations where
the weight of the Grigri is an issue.
Not that I disagree with the general premise stated, for most
situations.
From: Hank Moon, 10/26/2001
Seems the moral of this story is that the grigri backup is the way to go.
Does anyone disagree that, with the grigri, no backup knots are needed?
I wouldn't say that no backup knots are needed under any circumstances. Why
not knot?
The best initial "backup" practice is to ensure your ascender is fully
engaged before weighting. If an ascender comes off the rope, and the safety
catch is unbroken, ascender frame not deformed, rope not damaged, the most
likely conclusion is the cam and safety catch weren't fully engaged prior to
loading - I believe this is the cause of many popoffs, though it is
certainly possible for the rope to squeeze between cam and frame (without
any of the aforementioned ascender or rope damage) under the right
circumstances. I've bounced around quite a bit trying to induce popoff (2'
off the ground) and it is very difficult to do with rope over 8mm in
diameter, though I've only tried it with Petzl ascenders. Another precaution
is to link the lowest attachment hole of the ascender to the rope with a
carabiner to reduce leverage and twisting in situations where the rope is
not vertically oriented.
How do I get the rope to feed smoothly through the lower ascender after tying in short? [back
to top] [FAQ contents]
From: George Bell, 11/20/1995
Such is the penalty for being safe! This may help, though: release the cam on
the jumar by pulling down on it with your thumb. You should then be able
to slide the jumar up without moving your other hand (although maybe not).
This problem also gets better after you move up ten feet.
You can also clip a weight like a bunch of biners to the loop, although then
you end up with a bunch of junk dangling below you --> not recommended.
From: Eric Coomer, 11/20/1995
I just hold the cam open with my thumb as I pull the jumar up. I have the
petzl jugs and it's pretty easy to use said method. You can also hang gear
below, but I don't like unclipping gear from my sling for that purpose. Too
easy to have something go wrong and drop precious stuff.
From: Nate, 11/21/1995
Try leaving a longer loop when tying in short. In other words, don't tie in so
short when tying in short. Also, learn to "thumb the cam" without releasing the
safety to make the jumar slide easier in these situations. I usually don't tie in
short unless I am doing something out of the ordinary such as passing a bulge or
lip, traversing, jugging a roof, etc., or any situation that requires removing one
jumar from the rope.
From: Rex Pieper, 1/25/2001
What I really need to know is - How do you get the rope to feed
through as you ascend without having to pull it through with
your hands? Also in the process not providing enough weight /
tension in the rope to easily slide up the lower ascender.
Self-feeding doesn't happen immediately. When you are further up
the pitch, the weight of the rope will cause it to self-feed thru
the Grigri. At the beginning, it's just like tying a backup knot
and must be pulled thru every 20 feet or so. Just make sure if your
daisy chains and Grigri are on the same belay loop, that your Grigri
is clipped beneath (lower than) the daisys otherwise it will never
self-feed.
Although self-feeding is pretty cool, if there's any chance that the
loop that's hanging far below can get snagged on a flake or something
(or if it's windy) it's best to occasionally tie the loops off to your
harness lest your rope become snagged far below.
Aid Climbing: Page 1 2 3
Most of the information in this FAQ was originally posted on rec.climbing. If you would prefer to have something attributed to you removed from this FAQ, please contact us.
-a full strength haul loop (not one of those pansy little plastic things that
Petzl uses)
-lots of gear loops
-extra wide swami
Damn jugging is hard! (a first time jugging account)
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